[Grammar] try to V vs try Ving

[MichaelLu2000]

Hello guys!

As far as I know, try to V means that you are attempting to do something and eventually fail, while try Ving means that you test with some other methods or tools to see if it works, in which case the action is completed.

However, I am wondering if these two structures can be used in the same sentences and apply to the same verb but with convey different meanings.

I know this might sound complicated. Please look at the example below:

1. I was tied to a tree. I tried to cut the rope with my teeth but it didn't work. Then I try cutting it with my nail, which failed as well.

2. I received a gift yesterday. I tried to open it but the whole box was tied with a rope. Then I try cutting the rope with a pair of scissors but it didn't work.

Do these two sentences make sense?

The "try to" part represents the attempt to achieve a goal. while the "try ving" part means that some other methods are tried to see if it works.

I have this question because sometimes English verbs can mean that you have done the action but the effect might not be successful. I can say "Try opening the door with this key", which means that you can use this key as a test to open that door, but it doesn't that I am telling you to literally "open the door with this key and let's see what would happen next."

Or maybe I should say "Try using this key to open the door"

I hope I have made it clear enough.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Hello people!

Are you sure we're all guys?

As far as I know, try to V means that you are attempting to do something and eventually fail,

It does not mean you eventually fail. You can try and succeed.

while try Ving means that you test with some other methods or tools to see if it works,

No, no other methods are implied.

in which case the action is completed.

It might complete the action and it might not. Trying does not imply success or failure. It simply means attempting, making an effort.

However, I am wondering if these two structures can be used in the same sentences and apply to the same verb

Yes, they can.

but with convey different meanings.

No, they can't.

I know this might sound complicated. Please look at the example below:

1. I was tied to a tree. I tried to cut the rope with my teeth but it didn't work. Then I tried cutting it with my nail, which failed as well.

2. I received a gift yesterday. I tried to open it but the whole box was tied with a rope. Then I tried cutting the rope with a pair of scissors but it didn't work.

Do these two sentences make sense?

Yes, as corrected.

The "tried to" part represents the attempt to achieve a goal,

That's right.

while the "tried ving" part means that some other methods were tried to see if they worked.

That's right, too.

I have this question because sometimes English verbs can mean that you have done the action but the effort might not be successful.

To fail is to be unsuccessful. I can't think of a word that means might not succeed.

I can say "Try opening the door with this key", which means that you can use this key as a test to open that door, but it doesn't mean that I am telling you to literally (no quotation marks, this isn't a quote) open the door with this key and (delete let's) see what happens next.

Yes, it does. That's exactly what it means.

Or maybe I should say "Try using this key to open the door."

That's fine, too. They're both correct and natural and mean the same thing.

I hope I have made it clear enough.

Yes, you have.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

The meaning of the verb try doesn't change when you use other conjugations, such as trying.

This is true of all verbs. Changing conjugations does not change definitions.

 

[jutfrank]

The meaning of the verb try doesn't change when you use other conjugations, such as trying.

Chien Te Lu is talking about the fact that changing the following verb's form changes the meaning.

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Thank you for replying.

What I am saying is just that "try ving" can mean different things in different contexts.

We can also compare these two sentences:

1. We need to let some air in. Try opening that door with this key. (In this case, the door can be easily opened with this key. We are trying opening the door just to see if it can bring use more air. From the speaker's perspective, the door will certainly be opened. Opening the door is just one of the methods to try.)

2. I've tried to open it but I couldn't. Let me try opening it with this crowbar. (In this case, the verb "opening" is not a method to try. What's being tried is the tool crowbar. The action might not be completed. It can be seen as "Let me try doing the action of opening the door with this crowbar" I will do the action because I want to see if the crowbar works)

There are also many other similar cases, especially when try to and try ving are used in the same sentence.

I tried to open the car door with my key but it didn't work. Therefore, I tried opening it with a hanger, but it didn't work either.

Aging, in the first part of the sentence, try to means that opening the door is my goal. However, in the second part, I am "experimenting" with crowbar.

The distinction can be seen even in a sentence that one try to V and two try ving is used.

E.g. I try to make the room brighter so I tried opening the windows. But I was unable to push open one of the windows with my bare hands. so I tried opening it with a stick, but it didn't work either.

Again, in this case, the blue part means that the windows were opened with ease. It was just a method. Then, in the blue part, "opening the window" is an action that cannot be easily done. Opening the window "with a stick" is a test to do. I didn't really open the window. I simply "do the action with a stick" to see if it worked.

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Thank you for replying. And yes you are right about what I want to say.

 

[jutfrank]

Yes, you've got it basically right.

Your sentences are fine (as long as you change try to tried).

I'm not certain I follow what this sentence means, though:

I can say "Try opening the door with this key", which means that you can use this key as a test to open that door, but it doesn't that I am telling you to literally "open the door with this key and let's see what would happen next."

Or maybe I should say "Try using this key to open the door"

What's the exact situation you're thinking of? If it's the key that is the suggested method, rather than the opening, you should say Try this key (using is not necessary).

Try (using) this key [to open the door].
Try opening the door [to let some air in].

Can you see that the parts in square brackets above express the goal of the testing, not the testing itself?


Edit: I've just seen your post #4 since writing this post. Yes, you're right. Have I answered your question or are you still in doubt about anything?

 

[MichaelLu2000]

I cannot agree with you more.

I am saying that even if I say "try opening the door with this key", it can mean that I am testing with the key. I try doing this action with this tool, and the goal is to see if this tool works instead of other effects that I want. In my opinion, try doing something with something can mean try using something to do something.

 

[jutfrank]

I cannot agree with you more.

I am saying that even if I say "try opening the door with this key", it can mean that I am testing with the key. I try doing this action with this tool, and the goal is to see if this tool works instead of other effects that I want. In my opinion, try doing something with something can mean try using something to do something.

Well, you're right in that it can mean that, but I'd say that that is not a clear or maximally effective way of expressing the thought, so it should be avoided.

You really ought to put the thing that is being suggested as a new method as close as possible after the verb try. That's the reason why Try using this key to open the door is a much better expression of the thought than the ambiguous Try opening the door with this key, which could, as you say, be misinterpreted as meaning that opening the door is the suggested method.

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Yes, I think you are right. Well, it seems that we agree on many things.

 

[MichaelLu2000]

That's the reason why Try using this key to open the door is a much better expression of the thought than the ambiguous Try opening the door with this key, which could, as you say, be misinterpreted as meaning that opening the door is the suggested method.

Here I would like to say that it can also be ambiguous. It might sound like "using this key to open the door" is a method. E.g. It's stuffy here. Try using this key to open the door.

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Also, I am thinking that maybe using another option: try to V can solve the problem.

I tried to open the door with this key but it didn't work. Then I tried to open it with a crowbar, which eventually worked thirty minutes later.

Here, try to open the door with this key. (This one might be interpreted as "try to open the door with this particular key, which might somehow require some effort)

 

[jutfrank]

Here I would like to say that it can also be ambiguous. It might sound like "using this key to open the door" is a method. E.g. It's stuffy here. Try using this key to open the door.

Yes, I agree again. (You know what they say—Great minds think alike!)

I suppose it shows the importance of context. And remember also that in natural speech there would also be clues of meaning in intonation, which you just can't represent in written language.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Chien Te Lu is talking about the fact that changing the following verb's form changes the meaning.

Good point!

Yes, I know, but the examples didn't illustrate that. I was only addressing those examples, not the broader question. My culpa. So, speaking to the "Ving" issue:

"I tried to make sense" and "I tried making sense" don't mean the same thing. But neither implies success or failure.

And the way I read the question, that's what Chien was wondering. The answer is that they don't.

It's possible that Chien was asking something else. We'll see!

 

[jutfrank]

I tried to open the door with this key but it didn't work. Then I tried to open it with a crowbar, which eventually worked [after half an hour].

Yes, that's fine.

Here, try to open the door with this key. (This one might be interpreted as "try to open the door with this particular key, which might somehow require some effort)

I'm not sure I fully understand your point here. Is the point you're making that the first 'try to V' results in failure and the second 'try to V' results in success?


(Can we please use try to do and try doing to represent what you mean by 'try to V' and 'try Ving'? I think it might be easier for others to understand.)

 

[MichaelLu2000]

Well in this sentence I am just saying that to avoid the ambiguity you've mentioned. We can use "try to V". Let me analyze this.

Try to open the door (this is my goal) with this key (the method). In this case, I want you to open the door, which is the point. The method is not important. I just happen to have the key to the door.

Try to open the door with this key. If we see these two parts together, they mean "try to open the door with this particular key. It is an old key that's hard to use. But I want you to try to open the door with it. It might require some effort and time)

Another example might be clearer.

You are in China right now. I know it's hard but please try to eat noodles with chopsticks.

 

[jutfrank]

"I tried to make sense" and "I tried making sense" don't mean the same thing. But neither implies success or failure.

I'm not sure how to interpret these two sentences.

We should be careful distinguish between meaning and implicature here. It's not that try to do necessarily means failure, but it does in fact suggest the idea of failure in most instances.

If I say I'll try to ring you before lunch, this doesn't mean I will not ring you, but it does introduce to you a suggestion (of the possibility) that I will not ring you. Otherwise, I'd just say I'll ring you.

Similarly, if I say I tried to get in through the window, with no other context available, it is more likely that you would interpret that I did not get in through the window than that I succeeded in doing so. There's a suggestion of failure. I think most semanticists would say that this suggestion counts as implicature.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Thank you for replying.

What I am saying is just that "try ving" can mean different things in different contexts.

We can also compare these two sentences:

1. We need to let some air in. Try opening that door with this key. (In this case, the door can be easily opened with this key.

You don't know yet whether it will open easily.

We are trying opening the door just to see if it can bring use more air. From the speaker's perspective, the door will certainly be opened.

It's not certain. Maybe it will open and maybe it won't. If it were certain, we would just say "Open the door with this key." We say "try" when it's not certain.

Opening the door is just one of the methods to try.)

2. I've tried to open it but I couldn't. Let me try opening it with this crowbar. (In this case, the verb "opening" is not a method to try.

Yes, that's a good distinction.

What's being tried is the tool crowbar. The action might not be completed. It can be seen as "Let me try doing the action of opening the door with this crowbar" I will do the action because I want to see if the crowbar works.)

There are also many other similar cases, especially when try to and try ving are used in the same sentence.

I tried to open the car door with my key but it didn't work. Therefore, I tried opening it with a hanger, but it didn't work either.

Aging, in the first part of the sentence, try to means that opening the door is my goal. However, in the second part, I am "experimenting" with crowbar.

You're experimenting in both cases. But yes, it's the same distinction you illustrated above.

The distinction can be seen even in a sentence in which one try to V and two try vings are used.

E.g. I try to make the room brighter so I tried opening the windows. But I was unable to push open one of the windows with my bare hands. so I tried opening it with a stick, but it didn't work either.

Again, in this case, the blue part means that the windows were opened with ease.

One wasn't opened at all. See: "but it didn't work, either."

(Try throwing a rock.)

It was just a method. Then, in the blue part, "opening the window" is an action that cannot be easily done. Opening the window "with a stick" is a test to do. I didn't really open the window. I simply "do the action with a stick" to see if it worked.

Yes. Also known as trying.

(You were trying prying!)

These are interesting examples. In example 1, you're still trying to predict by conjugation whether trying implies success or failure. You can't.

You can try predicting. You can try to predict. You can even predict trying. None guarantees a result.

But it's clear to me now what you're asking, and your understanding of what the "Ving" shift does is correct. Thank you for clarifying that for me!

 

[PaulMatthews]

Your intuitions are sound. There is a difference with the verb "try", which can have different senses. This becomes clear when you pick a suitable verb as complement. "Eat" will do:

[1] He should try to eat less.
[2] He should try eating less.

In [1] "try" means "endeavour", while in it means "test the effectiveness of".

 

[MichaelLu2000]

The first one implies: It's hard for you to refrain from eating so much, but you have to try to do it. Maybe he's so fat and always eats a lot.

The second one means that: You should try eating less as a method. Maybe he gets a serious stomachache every time he eats so much, so I suggest that he should try eating less to see if the pain will be relieved the next time we have dinner together.

 

[MichaelLu2000]

I would like to ask you one more question. Can I say: You can't open the door? Here, try to open it with this key. I just want to know if this sentence sounds natural.