When he was describing how the accident had happened, he said that the brakes on John's car had failed

[EngLearner]

Bob meets Rick. Rick tells Bob that John has had an accident, and that he's been taken to the hospital. Then Rick tells him about how the accident happened. The next day, Bob bumps into Peter on the street. Bob tells Peter what Rick told him the day before. He says this to Peter:

1. Rick told me yesterday that John had had an accident. When he was describing how the accident happened, he said that the brakes on John's car failed, his car rolled for some time and then crashed into another car.

2. Rick told me yesterday that John had had an accident. When he was describing how the accident had happened, he said that the brakes on John's car failed, his car rolled for some time and then crashed into another car.

3. Rick told me yesterday that John had had an accident. When he was describing how the accident had happened, he said that the brakes on John's car had failed, his car rolled for some time and then crashed into another car.

Which of the above versions are correct in the context given? I'm wondering about the bolded tenses.

 

[jutfrank]

For the first sentence, use either of the following:

a) Rick told me yesterday that John has had an accident.
b) Rick told me yesterday that John had an accident.

Sentence a) is better if you're presenting it as news—as a present situation, which suggests he's still suffering the consequences. Sentence b) distances the event a little more, presenting it as a past event.

For the second sentence, this is fine:

When he was describing how the accident happened, he said the brakes failed ...

You're reporting the main events (what I call the 'dramatic action'), for which past simple is best. Brake failure is not background context, it's a key part of the drama, so past perfect is not useful.

 

[Georgebest]

The three versions are all grammatically correct in the context. A third version would be most appropriate and commonly used:

He described how John's car had been involved in an accident, saying that his brakes had failed, the car rolled for a while and then crashed into another car."

Here, the past perfect tense ("had failed") indicates that the brakes failed before the vehicle rolled and crashed. Describes the sequence of events and their chronological order.

 

[Rover_KE]

Georgebest, please read this extract from the forum's Posting Guidelines:

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[EngLearner]

For the first sentence, use either of the following:

a) Rick told me yesterday that John has had an accident.
b) Rick told me yesterday that John had an accident.

Sentence a) is better if you're presenting it as news—as a present situation, which suggests he's still suffering the consequences. Sentence b) distances the event a little more, presenting it as a past event.

I'm actually surprised that "had had" is incorrect in my sentences. I was pretty sure it was correct when I wrote them (I didn't even ask about that part). My logic was the following.

The following sentence is direct speech (i.e. what was said originally):

Rick said to me yesterday: "John has had an accident."

If we convert that into reported speech, then, according to the rule for reported speech, "has had" becomes "had had" (this is called backshift):

Rick told me yesterday that John had had an accident.

That seems logical, at least as far as the definition of the past perfect goes: the past perfect is used to describe an event that happened before another event in the past. In this case, the accident happened before the telling.

 

[5jj]

I'm actually surprised that "had had" is incorrect in my sentences.

It isn't. It's fine.

 

[jutfrank]

I'm actually surprised that "had had" is incorrect in my sentences.

This isn't a question of incorrectness. You need to learn which tense best fits what you want to say and do. Don't think about this in terms of correctness.

My logic was the following.

The following sentence is direct speech (i.e. what was said originally):

Rick said to me yesterday: "John has had an accident."

If we convert that into reported speech, then, according to the rule for reported speech, "has had" becomes "had had" (this is called backshift):

Rick told me yesterday that John had had an accident.

It's better not to backshift if you want to present John's being injured, or being in hospital, or presently suffering from the consequences of the accident at the time of speaking. In such a case, the present relevance of the sentence 'John has had an accident' is equally true today as yesterday so there's no reason to backshift it into the past.

After you've learnt the mechanical rule that you mention, the next step in your learning is to develop a sense of when to use backshifting, what effect it has on the listener, and how it can help you say what you mean.

That seems logical, at least as far as the definition of the past perfect goes: the past perfect is used to describe an event that happened before another event in the past. In this case, the accident happened before the telling.

If you want to progress to an advanced level, your goal should be to learn when it helps you to place emphasis on the sequence of events. Sometimes it's better not to sequence the events by backshifting. That's much harder to learn than the simple mechanical grammatical rule that you're talking about.

 

[5jj]

If you want to progress to an advanced level, your goal should be to learn when it helps you to place emphasis on the sequence of events. Sometimes it's better not to sequence the events by backshifting. That's much harder to learn than the simple mechanical grammatical rule that you're talking about.

The question of whether it's 'better' is sometimes a matter of personal opinion.

 

[jutfrank]

the question of whether it's 'better' is sometimes a matter of personal opinion.

In a sense it's always a matter of personal opinion. The speaker chooses the tense/aspect depending on what he's thinking.