when or while

[Buddy42]

Dear teachers,
when it comes to the word "when" I'm repeatedly confused. At school we learn that "when" is followed by the simple past and not by the past progressive. In contrast, the past progressive is often preceded by "while" if there is no subordinate clause beginning with "when".

Let's take the variations of the following sentence:
1. While the children were playing outside, my husband cleaned the floor.
2. The children were playing outside when my husband decided to clean the floor.
These two correspond to the rules mentioned above.

When reading books I often come across sentences similar to
3. When the children were playing outside, my husband decided to clean the floor.

Is no. 3 correct in written English?

 

[teechar]

Dear teachers,

That's nice, but there's no need for it. In future, just go right ahead and ask your question.

when it comes to the word "when" I'm repeatedly confused.

There's no need to! You've just used it correctly in that sentence.

When reading books I often come across sentences similar to:
3. When the children were playing outside, my husband decided to clean the floor.
Is no. 3 correct in written English?

That's not actually incorrect, but a more likely phrasing would be 1 or 2 above. The reason is that "while" always has a duration aspect to it, unlike "when" which may or may not. What I mean is that "while" talks about a period of time, whereas "when" can be about a period of, or a point in, time.

 

[jutfrank]

when it comes to the word "when" I'm repeatedly confused. At school we learn that "when" is followed by the simple past and not by the past progressive.

Here's a great place to start to unravel your confusion: Forget this nonsense.

3. When the children were playing outside, my husband decided to clean the floor.

Is no. 3 correct in written English?

Yes.

 

[5jj]

Let's take the variations of the following sentence:
1. While the children were playing outside, my husband cleaned the floor.
2. The children were playing outside when my husband decided to clean the floor.

You are not comparing like with like. In #1, the verb in the main clause is 'cleaned'. an activity that has duration. In #2, the main verb is 'decided', a punctual action.

 

[jutfrank]

This is what you should compare:

a) When the children were playing outside, my husband decided to clean the floor.
b) While the children were playing outside, my husband decided to clean the floor.

This minimal pair differs only in its conjunction (When/While), so any possible differences in meaning should be illuminating. That's where I think you should begin.

 

[Buddy42]

You are not comparing like with like. In #1, the verb in the main clause is 'cleaned'. an activity that has duration. In #2, the main verb is 'decided', a punctual action.

You're right. I chose "decide" to make the "interruption" obvious, which in a way is no real interruption of the process the children are in. They may not even be aware of their father's activities inside the house...

So #2 should be: The children were playing outside when my husband cleaned the floor.
However, this sounds odd to me...

 

[Buddy42]

This is what you should compare:

a) When the children were playing outside, my husband decided to clean the floor.
b) While the children were playing outside, my husband decided to clean the floor.

This minimal pair differs only in its conjunction (When/While), so any possible differences in meaning should be illuminating. That's where I think you should begin.

Okay.
a) maybe means that he waited for the children to leave the house before he started thinking about household chores?
b) maybe means that the children were outside when he got the idea of cleaning the floor?

 

[emsr2d2]

Okay.
a) maybe means that he waited for the children to leave the house before he started thinking about household chores?
b) maybe means that the children were outside when he got the idea of cleaning the floor?

No.
a) At the same time as (When) the children were playing outside, ...
b) During the time that (While) the children were playing outside, ...

In both, when the husband made the decision to clean the floor, the kids were already outside. If you want to express that he waited for them to leave before making the decision, say "As soon as/When the kids went outside, my husband decided ...".

 

[Buddy42]

I see. But these differences are quite subtle, aren't they? So in b) the husband took the chance to clean the floor while (and here in a way also because) the children were outside. In a) this is more like a coincidence?

 

[jutfrank]

Okay.
a) maybe means that he waited for the children to leave the house before he started thinking about household chores?
b) maybe means that the children were outside when he got the idea of cleaning the floor?

Yes, that's one interpretation of a). Good.

The English 'when' has some similarity to its German cousin 'wenn' in that there can be implied a sense of conditionality. In this case, it could be read as something like 'Upon the satisfaction of the condition of the children having left the house ...' .