[Grammar] You can do worse than ...

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Hi,

In "You can do worse than become a lawyer" (a more common alternative is "You could do worse than"), what does the "can" mean?
Some people say it is used to indicate possibility, but there are different types of possibility. What kind of possibility does the "can" indicate?

I'd appreciate your help.

 

[emsr2d2]

I'm not sure I've ever seen it used with anything other than "could", but I would say that the "You can" version means "It is possible to" as a general statement, rather than being directed specifically at the listener. It could be worded "One can do worse than ...".

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I'm not sure I've ever seen it used with anything other than "could", but I would say that the "You can" version means "It is possible to" as a general statement, rather than being directed specifically at the listener. It could be worded "One can do worse than ...".

Is it correct to say "You can catch a cold if you go out without wearing a coat"?

 

[emsr2d2]

Is it correct to say "You can catch a cold if you go out without wearing a coat"?

Yes, but again that's just a statement of general possibility. "Anyone can catch a cold if they go out without a coat." If you're aiming that comment at someone who is about to leave the house, coatless, say "You might/could catch a cold if you go out without a coat".

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Yes, but again that's just a statement of general possibility. "Anyone can catch a cold if they go out without a coat." If you're aiming that comment at someone who is about to leave the house, coatless, say "You might/could catch a cold if you go out without a coat".

In affirmative sentences, "can"seems to indicate a tendency, not tied to a one-time occasion. "He can be at home now" seems an incorrect version of "He could/may/might be at home now," whereas "It can get really cold in the winter there" seems fine. Is the "can" in "You can do worse than ask John for help" an unusual word choice for this reason?

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

It's possible.

I really suspect the "can" in "can do worse than" is a quirk of English.
"He can do worse than marry Mary" is not a statement of general applicability. It's about a particular situation.

But maybe the sentence is ill-formed. We need speakers who accept "can" in such sentences in principle to verify its acceptability.

 

[emsr2d2]

I would find that very unnatural. I would still expect "He could do worse than marry Mary".

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I would find that very unnatural. I would still expect "He could do worse than marry Mary".

We'd need to find someone who accepts the "can" in "You can do worse than become a lawyer," and then have him/her decide whether "he can do worse than marry Sarah" is acceptable. Since you don't like "You can do worse than become a lawyer," it is not suprising that you find "he can do worse than ..." unnatural.

We want to test whether the general vs. specific difference determies the use of "can" in "can do worse than V."

 

[jutfrank]

Is the "can" in "You can do worse than ask John for help" an unusual word choice for this reason?

I would say yes. I think that's the main reason.

 

[jutfrank]

We want to test whether the general vs. specific difference determies the use of "can" in "can do worse than V."

Who wants to test that?

I can already tell you that it does.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Who wants to test that?

I can already tell you that it does.

If the use of "can" in "can do worse than V" really calls for general possibility, we'd expect "Henry can do worse than marry Sarah" to be unacceptable. If the sentence is acceptable, then this use of "can" does not hinge on general possibility. That's why it is necessary to find a speaker who accepts (and uses) "can do worse than V" in principle, to test the hypothesis.

Edit: I seem to have found an instance where "can do worse than V" does not hinge on general possibility:

They'll have to work hard not to vanish amid the morass of similar bands, though, and for that they can do worse than look at the main act.

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/1068804.youre-beautiful/

 

[jutfrank]

If the use of "can" in "can do worse than V" really calls for general possibility, we'd expect "Henry can do worse than marry Sarah" to be unacceptable.

Not necessarily. How would you know that the speaker of that sentence was not using can in the general possibility sense? My view is that the use of can there is evidence that the speaker is thinking in terms of general possibility.

Edit: I seem to have found an instance where "can do worse than V" does not hinge on general possibility:

They'll have to work hard not to vanish amid the morass of similar bands, though, and for that they can do worse than look at the main act.

I agree that that is an unusual word choice (one would expect could) but I don't think it reveals much.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Good comments above. Could (and can) it be a matter of context?:

- You're marrying him? Come on. You can do better than that!

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Not necessarily. How would you know that the speaker of that sentence was not using can in the general possibility sense? My view is that the use of can there is evidence that the speaker is thinking in terms of general possibility.

The fact that "Henry" does not have generic reference like "you" (which can be rephrased as "one") " and marrying someone is typically not something that recurs shows that sentence cannot be about general possibility.

"Wars can cause casualties" is a statement of general possibility. It is true of wars in the past, present, and future.

"John can get really angry sometimes," despite the definite NP "John," is also a statement of general possibility. He has gotten really angry in the past, and might do so in the future.

Maybe you have a different conception of general possibility?

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Good comments above. Could (and can) it be a matter of context?:

- You're marrying him? Come on. You can do better than that!

This context shows "can" is not necessarily tied to general possibility. Here, it refers to a particular scenario about a particular interlocutor. But in your example, could "can" refer to ability?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

This context shows "can" is not necessarily tied to general possibility. Here, it refers to a particular scenario about a particular interlocutor. But in your example, could "can" refer to ability?

It does refer to ability. But so would could — the opposite of couldn't, which refers to inability.

 

[jutfrank]

The fact that "Henry" does not have generic reference like "you" (which can be rephrased as "one") " and marrying someone is typically not something that recurs shows that sentence cannot be about general possibility.

Well, I don't think you can say that it 'cannot' be about general possibility. But I agree that it would be (very) odd for a speaker to be thinking of general possibility in a case like this. Where did you get this 'Henry' sentence from?

"Wars can cause casualties" is a statement of general possibility. It is true of wars in the past, present, and future.

Yes, that's a decent example of can for general possibility.

"John can get really angry sometimes," despite the definite NP "John," is also a statement of general possibility. He has gotten really angry in the past, and might do so in the future.

Yes, that's an even better example.

Maybe you have a different conception of general possibility?

No, I don't think so.

It seems that what we're disagreeing on is whether can can be used with the sense of specific possibility rather than its 'normal' sense of general possibility. Is that right?

My response would be that you can find all sorts of irregular uses by native speakers if you look hard enough, so in that sense you're right that it can be used like that, but at the same time, such a use would have to count as irregular, or unusual, or incorrect, or however you want to describe it, because that's simply not what it normally means.

 

[jutfrank]

This context shows "can" is not necessarily tied to general possibility. Here, it refers to a particular scenario about a particular interlocutor. But in your example, could "can" refer to ability?

Yes, I'd say that in this example (Come on! You can do better than that!), can is better understood as having a sense of ability.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Well, I don't think you can say that it 'cannot' be about general possibility. But I agree that it would be (very) odd for a speaker to be thinking of general possibility in a case like this. Where did you get this 'Henry' sentence from?

It is modeled on "He could do worse than marry Eleanor" in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English. Somone told me "can do worse than V" and "could do worse than V" are freely interchangeable.

My response would be that you can find all sorts of irregular uses by native speakers if you look hard enough, so in that sense you're right that it can be used like that, but at the same time, such a use would have to count as irregular, or unusual, or incorrect, or however you want to describe it, because that's simply not what it normally means.

Could "can do worse than V" be an imitation of "can do better than V"? (Does the latter make more sense than the former?)

 

[jutfrank]

It is modeled on "He could do worse than marry Eleanor" in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English. Somone told me "can do worse than V" and "could do worse than V" are freely interchangeable.

I see. No, they are not freely interchangeable.

Could "can do worse than V" be an imitation of "can do better than V"? (Does the latter make more sense than the former?)

I don't quite understand the question. Imitation? There's little/no point in analysing these structures out of the context of use.