Compare with..

[Ju]

As a teacher, nothing can compare with seeing the progress of students.

Is the above sentence correct, please?

Thanks.

 

[jutfrank]

I don't like the use of As in this sentence. To me it's wrong.

I suggest:

For a teacher, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing students progressing.

 

[Yankee]

There is nothing wrong with the sentence, but in this context or others with "as" you will often see it preceded with an adjective, e.g. "as a certified teacher".

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I don't like the use of As in this sentence. To me it's wrong.

I suggest:

For a teacher, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing students progressing.

The "as a teacher" in the original is a kind of dangling modifier. Though it's common, it is best avoided in writing assignments.

 

[jutfrank]

Though it's common, it is best avoided in writing assignments.

Why do you think so? What kind of writing assignments are you thinking of?

Please remember to state that you are not a teacher.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Why do you think so? What kind of writing assignments are you thinking of?

Please remember to state that you are not a teacher.

If a student does not want to lose points for a dangling modifier, he or she should avoid it.

You could consult writing handbooks to know why. Would you tell an SAT taker to use a dangling modifier? Probably not.

 

[jutfrank]

If a student does not want to lose points for a dangling modifier, he or she should avoid it.

You could consult writing handbooks to know why. Would you tell an SAT taker to use a dangling modifier? Probably not.

Well, I do agree, as I said in post #2, that the use of As a teacher in the OP is not right.

Could you point out how As a teacher can be seen as a 'dangling' modifier? Thanks.

And what do you think of my suggested correction, with For a teacher? Is that dangling too?

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

The as-phrase does not properly link to the subject of the sentence. It's similar to At the age of ten, my father sent me to France.

"As a teacher" would be fine in "As a teacher, I firmly believe in academic integrity." Here, "As a teacher" refers to the subject "I."

The sentence in the original post is incorrect (at least prescriptively) because the as-phrase, which indicates a person's status, etc., does not have a matching referent. The for-version does not have the problem.

 

[Phaedrus]

As a teacher, nothing can compare with seeing the progress of students.

I agree with the dangling-modifier verdict. It may be worth noting that the sentence could be fixed by placing the "as"-phrase at the end.

Nothing can compare with seeing the progress of students as a teacher.

In that sentence, the "as"-phrase doesn't modify a noun. Rather, it functions as an adverbial within the gerund phrase headed by "seeing."

Unfortunately, I don't think it's grammatically possible to analyze the original as containing a fronted "as"-phrase related to that sentence.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

At the end, "as a teacher" relates to the invisible subject of "seeing the progress of students," the kind of null element called PRO in some versions of generative grammar.
It may be that the fronted "as a teacher" is prevented from referring to PRO by the intervening matrix subject "nothing."

 

[Phaedrus]

The "as a teacher" in the original is a kind of dangling modifier. Though it's common, it is best avoided in writing assignments.

I just happened upon an example of a dangling "as"-phrase in a famous poem that was commonly recited by schoolchildren a century ago:

"Tell my mother that her other sons shall comfort her old age,
And I was, aye, a truant bird, that thought his home a cage;
For my father was a solder, and, even as a child,
My heart leaped forth to hear him tell of struggles fierce and wild [. . .]."

-- Caroline Elizabeth Sarah Norton, "Bingen on the Rhine"

"As a child" doesn't refer to "my father" and can't refer to "my heart." The meaning, of course, is: "even as a child, I loved to hear him tell of those things."

 

[jutfrank]

Great example above, Phaedrus.

You know, I really don't think I would describe even as a child as 'dangling' here because the referent is obvious. Would you agree that 'dangling' applies only when the referent is unclear?

 

[Phaedrus]

You know, I really don't think I would describe even as a child as 'dangling' here because the referent is obvious.

Yes, "dangling" does seem too harsh a criticism. Maybe "sloppy" would work better -- cf. how some linguists speak of "sloppy" ellipsis:

Bill loves his mother and Bob does too.

The most natural interpretation of that sentence is that Bob loves his own mother. The "strict" interpretation is that Bob loves Bill's mother too.

 

[Ju]

I agree with the dangling-modifier verdict. It may be worth noting that the sentence could be fixed by placing the "as"-phrase at the end.

Nothing can compare with seeing the progress of students as a teacher.

In that sentence, the "as"-phrase doesn't modify a noun. Rather, it functions as an adverbial within the gerund phrase headed by "seeing."

Unfortunately, I don't think it's grammatically possible to analyze the original as containing a fronted "as"-phrase related to that sentence.

Can I put a comma before "as a teacher"?

 

[jutfrank]

Can I put a comma before "as a teacher"?

No. That would seem to change the structure of the sentence and create another 'dangling' phrase, just like in the original.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Great example above, Phaedrus.

You know, I really don't think I would describe even as a child as 'dangling' here because the referent is obvious. Would you agree that 'dangling' applies only when the referent is unclear?

Dangling modifiers are common and can be found in the works of great writers.
But when it comes to high-stakes exams, they should be avoided, whether the meaning is obvious or not.

The Little, Brown Handbook offers the following examples:

Passing the building, the vandalism became visible. (Who was passing the building? Pedestrians, obviously. But "passing the building" is still considered a dangling modifier.)

When destructive, researchers have learned that vandals are more likely to be in groups. (Who is destructive? Vandals, of course.)

Another example, from Michael Swan's Practical English Usage:

Wrapped in red and gold gift paper, I delivered the parcel to my girlfriend. (What was wrapped in gift paper? The parcel, obviously.)

On second thought, though, maybe "as a teacher" in the original post should be termed a misplaced modifier if we recognize an invisible subject in the predicate "seeing the progress of students."

 

[Tdol]

I think that pedantry doesn't really work in these cases, because we tend to assume the most logical interpretation, and that is not that the person was wrapped in red and gold gift paper. If we think what the person meant, we will generally get the right answer.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I think that pedantry doesn't really work in these cases, because we tend to assume the most logical interpretation, and that is not that the person was wrapped in red and gold gift paper. If we think what the person meant, we will generally get the right answer.

The thing is, the most logical interpretation in those cases would not lead a test-taker (in East Asia or the US) to gain points.

 

[jutfrank]

The thing is, the most logical interpretation in those cases would not lead a test-taker (in East Asia or the US) to gain points.

I don't think it would be a big deal for any examiners I know in the UK, and I'd be surprised if this was much different in the US. I suppose it does depend on what the test is testing exactly, but the point of school tests and exams in English designed for native speakers is to focus on critical thinking, reacting to and understanding texts, and expressing your ideas about things well. Students would not get penalised on some trivial technicality unless it caused a serious impediment to comprehension.

I understand that something like 'dangling' modifiers may be an issue in some parts of Asia, though, where there is often a very different idea of what language counts as 'correct' and what doesn't. Obviously, the test-takers there are almost exclusively non-native speakers, too.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I don't think it would be a big deal for any examiners I know in the UK, and I'd be surprised if this was much different in the US. I suppose it does depend on what the test is testing exactly, but the point of school tests and exams in English designed for native speakers is to focus on critical thinking, reacting to and understanding texts, and expressing your ideas about things well. Students would not get penalised on some trivial technicality unless it caused a serious impediment to comprehension.

I understand that something like 'dangling' modifiers may be an issue in some parts of Asia, though, where there is often a very different idea of what language counts as 'correct' and what doesn't. Obviously, the test-takers there are almost exclusively non-native speakers, too.

Unfortunately, the SAT and the GMAT are designed by native speakers and do feature those technicalities.
Here are some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlUrXH6DhTg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5iBJOWiC_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAZrlNzJgqk