have you ever called me and...

[jutfrank]

My point is that "Have you" matches with "[have you] not got". But it doesn't match with "I haven't". The subject (if that's the right term, I'm really not sure) is different.

Yes, that's right. In your version, the subject, whether explicit or ellipted, is you:

Have you ever called me and [have you ever] not got an answer?

It's a nice sentence. It's a compound question, in that it essentially asks two questions in one.

But my version isn't a compound question. In fact, it's simpler:

Have you ever called me and I haven't answered?

There are two beautiful naked full-figured independent clauses there. Their subjects are different, yes, but the conjunction and allows for that grammatically and logically. The first clause is interrogative and the second is declarative, which is not common for a sentence by any means, but I think they work nicely together. I can't really see why you need both clauses to have the same subject and sentence type.

 

[jutfrank]

Have you ever asked him something and he refused?
Have you ever asked him something and been refused?

Which do you prefer?

This is effectively the same difference. For me, they both work very well. I can easily imagine saying them both.

 

[Barque]

Edit - in reply to post #20.

I was trying to draw a parallel to what Jutfrank said.

As for my second sentence, "Have you ever asked him something and been refused?", I really don't see why you think it's incorrect. I suspect you've misread it.

 

[Barque]

This is effectively the same difference. For me, they both work very well. I can easily imagine saying them both.

Well, it appears emsr2d2 disagrees with you. See post #20.

 

[Barque]

Personally I think my second sentence in post #18 works but not the first.

 

[Barque]

I've edited post 23 to clarify that it was a reply to post 20.

 

[Barque]

In any case, I think emsr2d2 was being a little too particular in her corrections in her post 20 to my post 18.

 

[jutfrank]

As for my second sentence, "Have you ever asked him something and been refused?", I really don't see why you think it's incorrect. I suspect you've misread it.

No, I don't think it's incorrect at all! I think it's a nice sentence.

Well, it appears emsr2d2 disagrees with you. See post #20.

It strikes me that emsr2d2 may have misunderstood what you meant. You didn't mean that he refused to answer, you meant that he refused to do whatever had been asked. Is that right? In any case, the difference is the same so it doesn't matter.

Personally I think my second sentence in post #18 works but not the first.

Yes, well it must be for the same reasons, because the sentence pairs are identical.

 

[5jj]

Have you ever asked him something and he refused?
Have you ever asked him something and been refused?

I agree with emsr2d2.

They' be fine with 'for' or 'to do' after 'him'.

 

[emsr2d2]

I would happily accept:

Have you ever asked him for something and he refused? (There is an implied "to give it to you" at the end.)

My problem is that your sentences suggest that a dialogue could go as follows:

Q: What's the time?
A: I refuse.

That's not right.

(Cross-posted with 5jj)

 

[Barque]

No, I don't think it's incorrect at all! I think it's a nice sentence.

Sorry that was in reply to emsr2d2's post. She believes it's wrong.

You didn't mean that he refused to answer, you meant that he refused to do whatever had been asked.

That's right.

 

[jutfrank]

I agree largely with posts #29 and #30. The pattern ask somebody something is almost always about questions rather than requests.

But I'm not sure it always must be. I wonder what members think of this:

Can I ask you a favour?

Is it okay without 'for', do you think?

(Okay, we're sidetracking somewhat now.)

 

[Barque]

I was trying to draw a parallel with the OP sentences.

My problem is that your sentences suggest that a dialogue could go as follows:

Q: What's the time?
A: I refuse.

I think the context would normally tell you what's meant. "Asked him something" can sometimes mean "asked him for something".

Crossposted.

 

[Barque]

But I'm not sure it always must be.

It isn't.

 

[Barque]

. I wonder what members think of this:

Can I ask you a favour?

Is it okay without 'for', do you think?

Yes.

 

[5jj]

"Asked him something" can sometimes mean "asked him for something".

Not usually.

 

[emsr2d2]

I agree largely with posts #29 and #30. The pattern ask somebody something is almost always about questions rather than requests.

But I'm not sure it always must be. I wonder what members think of this:

Can I ask you a favour?

Is it okay without 'for', do you think?

(Okay, we're sidetracking somewhat now.)

There are a couple of questions like that that I've always found it difficult to explain to learners.

1. Can I ask you a favour?
2. Can I ask you the time?

Technically, in my opinion, 1 and 2 should both contain "for" to be 100% grammatical but of course both are in regular use (in BrE, at least). They are, however, exceptions to the general rule. We can't say "Can I ask you a pen?", for example.

3. ("Can I ask you a question?" and "Can I ask you for a question?" don't fit with the above because adding "for" changes the meaning completely, which is what my original point was - "Have you ever asked him something?" has a totally different meaning from "Have you ever asked him for something?")

 

[tzfujimino]

[...] The first clause is interrogative and the second is declarative [...]

I'm not used to that construction you mentioned above, so I find the original sentences a bit odd.
(Now I know it's natural.)
I like Barque's version better.