[Grammar] New Immigrants Materials Shelf

[kadioguy]

(On a poster in a library in Taiwan)

New Immigrants Materials Shelf

Taipei Public Library has set up the "New Immigrants Materials Shelf " at every branches & reading units, in order to carry the mission of promoting dialogues among the diverse cultures, and of nurturing the extension of multiplicity among cultures, allowing our users to get multicultural collection and information easily.

------------

teechar:

"Branches" and "units" should be in the singular; "dialogues" is unnatural (again, the singular would be better); and "New Immigrants Materials Shelf" is possible. Also, "extension of multiplicity" and "multicultural collection" don't work for me.

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/...erials-Shelf?p=1343642&viewfull=1#post1343642

-----------
Questions:

1. I don't know the reason that teechar said "New Immigrants Materials Shelf" is possible. I would use "New Immigrant Materials Shelf" (Immigrant in the singular) or "New Immigrants' Materials Shelf" (add an apostrophe after "Immigrants'").

2. Can I say that in the original sentence "..., allowing our users to get multicultural collection and information easily" means "..., which allows our users to get multicultural collection and information easily" and "which" refers to the whole part before it?

----------
(Source)

 

[kadioguy]

Because it is. It seems to be a shelf of materials for or about new immigrants.

Is this version possible?

"New Immigrants' Materials Shelf" (add an apostrophe after "Immigrants'")

 

[tedmc]

New Immigrants Materials Shelf

Taipei Public Library has set up [STRIKE]the[/STRIKE] a "New Immigrants Materials Shelf " at every branch[STRIKE]es[/STRIKE] & reading unit[STRIKE]s[/STRIKE], in order to carry out the mission of promoting dialogues among the diverse cultures, [STRIKE]and of[/STRIKE] nurturing the extension of multiplicity (what is this?) among cultures, and allowing our users to get multicultural collection (what is this?) and information easily.

I think the above text needs some editing and rewriting.

I am not sure if all the materials are kept on a single shelf in the library, which would be unbelievable for a multi-cultural collection. The name (Shelf) sounds odd to me. I would have thought that it is a separate section of resources in the libraries specially for new immigrants.

Another amusing part on the poster is "the common sense of daily life", whatever that means.

 

[tedmc]

Is this version possible?

"New Immigrants' Materials Shelf" (add an apostrophe after "Immigrants'")

I think you do not need the apostrophe 's" there as the noun "New Immigrants" also serves as an adjective.

 

[kadioguy]

I am not sure if all the materials are kept on a single shelf in the library, which would be unbelievable for a multi-cultural collection. The name (Shelf) sounds odd to me. I would have thought that it is a separate section of resources in the libraries specially for new immigrants.

That area is not large. Roughly you may see it as a single bookshelf, like this one: (This is the whole part of it)

Another amusing part on the poster is "the common sense of daily life", whatever that means.

I think it means "the common sense of daily life (in Taiwan)".

 

[GoesStation]

I think it means "the common sense of daily life (in Taiwan)".

That's not a meaningful use of the phrase "common sense".

 

[kadioguy]

I think you do not need the apostrophe 's" there as the noun "New Immigrants" also serves as an adjective.

Please see the following:

(Practical English Usage 3rd ed.)

386 noun + noun (2): advanced points
.
.
.
6 noun + 's + noun: children's clothes; a bird's nest

In some classifying expressions we use a structure with possessive's.
This is common when we are talking about things that are used by a person or animal: the first noun refers to the user.

children's clothes / a man's sweater
women's magazines / a bird's nest

​

Generally, either both nouns are singular or both are plural.

a child's toy / children's clothes
​

but

a women's magazine

​

Not all 'used by' expressions have possessive 's.

baby clothes / a bird cage

​

British and American usage sometimes differ. Compare:

a baby's bottle (BrE) a baby bottle (AmE)
a baby's pram (BrE) a baby carriage (AmE)
a doll's house (BrE) a doll house (AmE)

​

=================================

531 singular and plural (9): noun + noun

1 first noun singular: shoe shop

In noun + noun structures, the first noun is normally singular in form even if it has a plural meaning.

a shoe shop (= a shop that sells shoes)
a toothbrush (= a brush for teeth)
trouser pockets (= pockets in trousers)
a ticket office (= an office that sells tickets)

​

2 exceptions

Some nouns are plural in this structure. These include nouns which have no singular form (like clothes), nouns which are not used in the singular with the same meaning (like customs), and some nouns which are more often used in the plural than in the singular (like savings). In some cases, e.g. antique(s), drug(s), usage is divided, and both singular and plural forms are found. In general, plurals are becoming more common in this structure. Examples:

a clothes shop	a drinks cabinet
a glasses case	a goods train (British English)
a customs officer	a sports car
arms control	a greeting(s) card
a savings account	an antique(s) dealer/shop
the accounts department	the drug(s) problem
the sales department	the arrival(s) hall (at an airport)
the outpatients department (of a hospital)

​

 

[tedmc]

I don't think you can call this a shelf (singular).

 

[kadioguy]

All of which tells us that we are not going to get universal agreement on whether or not there should be an apostrophe in New Immigrants Material Shelf, or on where it should be if there is one.

I think you meant to say this.

 

[TheParser]

NOT A TEACHER

Hi,

1. Regarding using an apostrophe with the word "immigrants," I feel that most Americans nowadays would not do so. They feel that the apostrophe in such a case to be unnecessary clutter. Few Americans, for example, would write "veterans' hospitals." It would simply be "veterans hospitals" or even "veteran hospitals."

2. I feel that sometimes it is better not to translate word for word. In my opinion, "New Immigrants Materials Shelf" does not sound smooth or idiomatic.

3. I found some examples on the World Wide Web that may interest you. I agree with you that the singular "immigrant" is possible. In fact, I think that many (most?) Americans would prefer it.

a. "... stacks of magazines and new immigrant information and a poster of …." Into the Blizzard (2014) by Michael Winter.

b. "Immigrant Information Corners Established in all 24 Boston Public Library's Neighborhood Branches."

c. "New Immigrant Information Kiosk" at an airport in Canada.

4. If I had my druthers, I would label that location in the Taipei library as the "New Immigrant Information Section."

 

[jutfrank]

1) teechar's suggestion is a good one. The idea is that New Immigrants is a way to classify what kind of shelf it is. There's no reason to use an apostrophe there because there's no sense of possession. The shelf doesn't 'belong' to the immigrants.

2) Don't ask whether you can, ask whether you should. No, you shouldn't—it's much better as it is.

 

[kadioguy]

New Immigrants Materials Shelf

Taipei Public Library has set up the "New Immigrants Materials Shelf " at every branches & reading units, in order to carry the mission of promoting dialogues among the diverse cultures, and of nurturing the extension of multiplicity among cultures, allowing our users to get multicultural collection and information easily.
-----------
Questions:


2. Can I say that in the original sentence "..., allowing our users to get multicultural collection and information easily" means "..., which allows our users to get multicultural collection and information easily" and "which" refers to the whole part before it?

2) Don't ask whether you can, ask whether you should. No, you shouldn't—it's much better as it is.

Hi, jutfrank.

I mean "Can I say that A means B?", and that doesn't necessarily mean "Can I say this instead of that?"

I didn't know why "allowing" is in the -ing form, so I was trying to give an explanation for that. This is, when I use the "Can I say that A means B?" sentence, I mean "Can I use B as an explanation for A?", but that doesn't necessarily mean that I will choose B instead of A.

In this case I wanted to know if the "allowing" can be considered as "which allows", and if the "which" refers to the whole part before it. If it can, then I will understand about the "allowing", i.e., it is the whole part before "allowing" that allows "our users to get multicultural collection and information easily". (And to some extent we can say that "allowing" is a simplified version of "which allows".)

 

[Tdol]

2 exceptions

Some nouns are plural in this structure. These include nouns which have no singular form (like clothes), nouns which are not used in the singular with the same meaning (like customs), and some nouns which are more often used in the plural than in the singular (like savings). In some cases, e.g. antique(s), drug(s), usage is divided, and both singular and plural forms are found. In general, plurals are becoming more common in this structure. Examples:

a clothes shop	a drinks cabinet
a glasses case	a goods train (British English)
a customs officer	a sports car
arms control	a greeting(s) card
a savings account	an antique(s) dealer/shop
the accounts department	the drug(s) problem
the sales department	the arrival(s) hall (at an airport)
the outpatients department (of a hospital)

​

Languages change over time- this list is subject to change, and he does clearly state that plurals are becoming more common, which means this list will grow. The movement of people is a culturally very sensitive area, so why do you think it would be an exception to the pattern he clearly describes? Michael Swan is describing patterns and trends, not writing laws in stone, and clearly states that what Teechar suggested is growing in popularity. Swan is not trying to lay down the law- if fact, he is trying to do quite the opposite and to find patterns in usage that are subject to change in the ebb and flow of language development. His book has been through several editions.

 

[kadioguy]

Languages change over time- this list is subject to change, and he does clearly state that plurals are becoming more common, which means this list will grow. The movement of people is a culturally very sensitive area, so why do you think it would be an exception to the pattern he clearly describes? Michael Swan is describing patterns and trends, not writing laws in stone, and clearly states that what Teechar suggested is growing in popularity. Swan is not trying to lay down the law- if fact, he is trying to do quite the opposite and to find patterns in usage that are subject to change in the ebb and flow of language development. His book has been through several editions.

Hi, Tdol.

I am afraid that you misunderstand something. The whole thing you quoted is part of Michael Swan's book - it is not my opinion. As a non-native English speaker, I know very little about that.

 

[kadioguy]

Hi, jutfrank.

I mean "Can I say that A means B?", and that doesn't necessarily mean "Can I say this instead of that?"

I didn't know why "allowing" is in the -ing form, so I was trying to give an explanation for that. This is, when I use the "Can I say that A means B?" sentence, I mean "Can I use B as an explanation for A?", but that doesn't necessarily mean that I will choose B instead of A.

In this case I wanted to know if the "allowing" can be considered as "which allows", and if the "which" refers to the whole part before it. If it can, then I will understand about the "allowing", i.e., it is the whole part before "allowing" that allows "our users to get multicultural collection and information easily". (And to some extent we can say that "allowing" is a simplified version of "which allows".)

Please let me explain more about this.

Take this sentence for example:

A. He worked very hard, ensuring his success.

Thus:

B. He worked very hard, which ensured his success.

So if I see (A), I will assume that it is a simplified version of (B). This idea is being used to my question above. That's why I asked "Can I say that (A) means (B)?" (but that doesn't necessarily mean I will choose B instead of A - "which is better" may be a follow-up question.)

I Hope this post will make it clearer. :up:

 

[jutfrank]

I'm aware that you have trouble with the meaning of -ing clauses and that you like to parse them as relative clauses. You have written many posts in the past with similar such questions.

One problem with your question is that you're essentially asking us what you mean. Why don't you just ask us to tell you what the meaning of the -ing clause is? Alternatively, you could tell us what you mean by 'which' in your relative clause version.

 

[kadioguy]

One problem with your question is that you're essentially asking us what you mean. Why don't you just ask us to tell you what the meaning of the -ing clause is? Alternatively, you could tell us what you mean by 'which' in your relative clause version.

OK, let me try again.
-------

New Immigrants Materials Shelf

Taipei Public Library has set up the "New Immigrants Materials Shelf " at every branches & reading units, in order to carry the mission of promoting dialogues among the diverse cultures, and of nurturing the extension of multiplicity among cultures, allowing our users to get multicultural collection and information easily.

--------
Question:

In the text above, could you tell me which "allowing our users to get multicultural collection and information easily"? I don't know what the meaning of the -ing clause is, and why the -ing form exists.

 

[Tdol]

I am afraid that you misunderstand something. The whole thing you quoted is part of Michael Swan's book - it is not my opinion.

I know that. But he is looking at how language works and knows it is in a state of flux. He is not laying down the law. His book is brilliant, but these are not fixed, immutable rules. They are descriptions of what we are doing at this point in time, and language changes.

 

[TheParser]

A. He worked very hard, ensuring his success.

Thus:

B. He worked very hard, which ensured his success.

NOT A TEACHER

Hi,

I could not help "overhearing" your "conversation" with Jutfrank (posts 17 and 18).

I thought that you'd like to know that the grammarian whom I most idolize, Dr. George Oliver Curme, in the second volume (page 293) of his A Grammar of the English Language (1931), feels that a sentence such as "He worked very hard, (thus) ensuring his success" is a shorter way of saying "He worked very hard, so that he ensured his success."

NOTE: I may be wrong, but I chose to use "he" after the conjunction "so that" because of Dr. Curme's example sentence of "He mistook me for a friend, thus causing me some embarrassment" is short for "He mistook me for a friend, so that he [my emphasis] caused me some embarrassment." I was tempted to use "it" in your sentence to refer to the hard work being responsible for his success. Maybe a teacher will tell us which word is more appropriate.

 

[jutfrank]

kadioguy, I suggest that you spend some time actually studying this particular area (present participle clauses) with a good textbook. You need to find a range of example sentences that will reveal the various meanings and uses in a clear and simple way.

I can offer what I think is a better way of rephrasing this particular sentence than the one The Parser offers above:

He worked very hard, thereby ensuring his success.

When you see sentences with -ing clauses, you have to think about how the -ing clause relates logically to what comes before it. There are several ways this could be, depending on the meaning of the utterance as whole.