people I want to help...

navi tasan

Key Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
United States
Are these sentences correct?

1) There are people I want to help me.
2) Those are people I would like to help me.
3) You are one of the people I'd like to help me.
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I'm a little confused. Do you want to help them, or do you want them to help you?
 

navi tasan

Key Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
United States
Thank you very much, Tarheel.

I want them to help me.
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
OK. There are several ways to say that.

1. I need help.
With this one (perhaps the most basic) the listener assumes the help you need would come from another person.

2. I need you to help me
With this one you are talking to the person whose help you require.

3. I need your help.
This one is a variation on #2.

4. I need help with something.
5. I need somebody to help me.
6. I need Bob to help me.
7. I'd like you to help me.
8. Help me!

That's the simplest and most basic.

I've been trying to decide if I would use any of those in the OP. I don't think so. It's good to be polite, but you also want to make it clear what you are asking for.
 

emsr2d2

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
Are these sentences correct?

1) There are people I want to help me.
2) Those are the people I would like to help me.
3) You are one of the people I'd like to help me.
With my correction to #2, they're all grammatically possible. Whether they're the correct sentence for the context you plan to use them in is impossible to say.
 

Holmes

Banned
Joined
Nov 15, 2022
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
1) There are people I want to help me.
2) Those are people I would like to help me.
3) You are one of the people I'd like to help me.
I personally would find the passive more natural in the relative clause of each of those examples:

1a) There are people I want to be helped by. / There are people by whom I want to be helped.
2a) Those are people I would like to be helped by. / Those are people by whom I would like to be helped.
3a) You are one of the people I'd like to be helped by. / You are one of the people by whom I'd like to be helped.
 

navi tasan

Key Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
United States
Thank you all very much,

Very elegant solutions. But I think there are cases where there is no way out of using that 'structure'.

A) You are one of the people I'd like to go there.
B) There are some people I want to stay here.

I think one could also use:
A1) You are one of the people I'd like to have go there.
B1) There are some people I want to have stay here.

What do you think of this one?
C) She is the one person I'd love to have love me.
 

Holmes

Banned
Joined
Nov 15, 2022
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Very elegant solutions. But I think there are cases where there is no way out of using that 'structure'.

A) You are one of the people I'd like to go there.
B) There are some people I want to stay here.
Nice, Navi. It is hard to find a way out of using those -- without ditching the sentences entirely and beginning anew, that is.

I think that the awkwardness of such sentences arises only in writing. In speech, emphasis and very slight pause would render them natural.

The problem is that the reader sees "I'd like to . . ." and assumes it's complete, whereas, in underlying structure there is a gap between "like" and "to."

I'd like a number of people to go there. You are one of them. You are one of the people [whom] I'd like __ to go there.

In speech, the sentence would be natural if it were spoken roughly like this.

You are one of the people I'd LIKE . . to go there.
There are some people I WANT . . to stay here.


Interestingly, if you go the opposite way and try to pronounce "want to" in (B) as "wanna," the sentence will be totally ungrammatical:

*
There are some people I wanna stay here.

And here one might pause for a long dissertation on wh-movement across a trace, but I shan't.

You might check out the famous "Teddy" examples
here, though, if you feel like opening a can of worms.
 

navi tasan

Key Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
United States
Thank you both very much,

Tarheel, I am not sure whether you're asking about my original sentences or my A, B, A1, B1, and C.
I was writing something and I wrote a sentence similar in structure to my original sentences, then. since it didn't sound particularly natural, I started thinking about the whole thing and came up with my example sentences.

Holmes. it is very interesting that 'wanna' cannot be used in that sentence. I see your point, but can't figure out why. I suppose 'wanna' attaches the infinitive tightly to the subject of 'wanna'. Maybe it makes sense, since the 'to' is attached to 'want'. The subject of 'want' has to be the agent of the infinitive.
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
@navi tasan Normally I can think up conversations to illustrate how a sentence might be used in a conversation. I'm stumped.
 

navi tasan

Key Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
United States
Thank you very much, Tarheel,

I've been told that my brain works in weird ways. I think that is true.
 

Holmes

Banned
Joined
Nov 15, 2022
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Holmes. it is very interesting that 'wanna' cannot be used in that sentence. I see your point, but can't figure out why. I suppose 'wanna' attaches the infinitive tightly to the subject of 'wanna'. Maybe it makes sense, since the 'to' is attached to 'want'. The subject of 'want' has to be the agent of the infinitive.
That informal explanation works for me. I like it. One Chomskyan ("metaphysical") explanation is that to can't move up to contract to want in this sort of context because the subject of the infinitival (the silent whom, or relative pronoun, of the relative clause) has left a "trace" of itself behind in its original position, interposed between want and to, and that trace blocks to from contracting to want. Not everyone agrees with that explanation, though.
 

navi tasan

Key Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
United States
Thank you very much, Holmes.

You replied to a question that I wanted to ask, but hadn't yet! I wanted to know if 'who' or 'whom' would have to be used in those sentences!

Your knowledge of grammar and its subtleties is truly amazing! You seem to have studied this issue pretty seriously.

I suppose that maybe those who don't like the 'metaphysical' explanation (if I have understood it correctly at all) wonder why the trace of the 'whom' would left between the 'to' and the 'want'. But even if we add the 'whom' we won't be able to use 'wanna', will we? So 'whom' leaves a trace even when it is there?

I suppose I am missing something. My apologies if what I wrote doesn't make sense. You seem to be a real professional and I am an amateur who can barely find his way around!

Thanks again for taking the time.
 
Last edited:

jutfrank

VIP Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
I wanted to know if 'who' or 'whom' would have to be used in those sentences!

It wouldn't have to but it would help with interpretation.

But even if we add the 'whom' we won't be able to use 'wanna', will we?

No.

So 'whom' leaves a trace even when it is there?

If it's there, then there's no 'trace' to speak of.

@Holmes: The Chomskyan explanation makes a great deal of sense to me. I'd be interested to get a basic idea of what the possible objections to it might be. Also, I wonder what you mean by the word 'metaphysical'.
 

Holmes

Banned
Joined
Nov 15, 2022
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I suppose that maybe those who don't like the 'metaphysical' explanation (if I have understood it correctly at all) wonder why the trace of the 'whom' would left between the 'to' and the 'want'. But even if we add the 'whom' we won't be able to use 'wanna', will we? So 'whom' leaves a trace even when it is there?

If it's there, then there's no 'trace' to speak of.

@Holmes: The Chomskyan explanation makes a great deal of sense to me. I'd be interested to get a basic idea of what the possible objections to it might be. Also, I wonder what you mean by the word 'metaphysical'.

Hello, Navi and Jutfrank -- The idea behind the "trace" is that whom, the relative pronoun of the relative clause [whom] I want to help me, "starts out," deep-structurally, as the subject of the infinitive (These are the people I want [whom] to help me) and then "moves" to the front of the relative clause, right after people, leaving behind a trace of itself in its original position, a trace which severs the illusory contiguity of want and to in surface structure and prevents their contracting to each other in the informal contracted form wanna.

I describe this explanation of the ungrammaticality of sentences like *There are people I wanna help me and *There are some people I wanna stay here as "metaphysical" simply because it appeals to movements that do not meet the eye or ear in speech or reading, as well as to linguistic residues which inhibit contraction as if the linguistic residues were some kind of dark matter in the mental realm which these theoretical movements and vacated syntactic positions inhabit.

There is a great deal of literature on the prohibition of to-contraction in these types of cases and the question of whether it confirms the Chomskyan theory of "traces." I know of only one argument against it, but it is from Geoffrey Pullum himself. Pullum's article "The Morpholexical Nature of English to-Contraction" proposes that forms like wanna, gonna, oughta, supposta, hafta, etc. are formed by morphological rather than syntactic processes. Syntactically, he maintains, they (his "therapy verbs" :) ) simply take bare infinitival complements.
 

navi tasan

Key Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
United States
Thank you very much, Holmes, for this scholarly reply!

You seem to be a professional linguist. The most amazing thing about your explanation is that I understood it (or at least think I did!).

Respectfully,
Navi
 
Top