[Grammar] what even you must condemn

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Hi,

I saw the following sentence in a dictionary. I'd like to know whether it is correct and what relationship holds between "what even you must condemn" and "he was lying."

But,
what even you must condemn, he was lying.

I'd appreciate your help.



 
The sentence is correct, although I think it would be much clearer to hear it spoken than to see it written.

I see, 'what even you must condemn' as a parenthetic phrase, with the accent on the word 'you'.

But he was lying, and even you (who are not prone to condemning much) must surely condemn this.
 
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The sentence is correct, although I think it would be much clearer to hear it spoken than to see it written.

I see, 'what even you must condemn' as a parenthetic phrase, with the accent on the work 'you'.

But he was lying, and even you (who are not prone to condemning much) must surely condemn this.


How about the following?

What I know, he lives in New York.

He lives in New York, what I know.
 
Neither is grammatical.
 
The sentence in the OP is grammatical. Yours aren't.
 
I'm not crazy about the sentence in the OP. If it were in a text I was editing, I'd revise it.
 
You could use this:

From what I know/have heard, he lives in New York.
 


I saw the following sentence in a dictionary. I'd like to know whether it is correct and what relationship holds between "what even you must condemn" and "he was lying."

[1] But,
what even you must condemn, he was lying.

This head-scratcher of a question sucked me in yesterday, and the more I scratch it the more it itches.

I agree with Rover and Roman55 that the sentence is grammatical, unlike the alleged variations in post #3. While not robustly grammatical to my ears, the example in the OP has a kind of fringe acceptability. I believe that "even" is crucial to its fringe grammaticality, too. That is, if we deleted "even," I would find the sentence ungrammatical:

(2) *[strike]But, what you must condemn, he was lying[/strike].

Further, even with "even," I would not find sentence grammatical if the "what"-clause were placed at the end:

(3) *[strike]But he was lying, what even you must condemn[/strike].

However, if "what" were changed to "which," end placement would be fine. This would change the structure in question to a sentential relative clause:

(4) But he was lying, which even you must condemn.

That sentence is clearly equivalent in meaning to the example in the OP, though it arguably has differences in emphasis or focus. Also, consider this paraphrase:

(5) But—and this is something even you must condemn—he was lying.

To me, that is the precise semantic equivalent of (1). What is more, it is robustly grammatical to my ears. The "problem" is that it changes the syntax completely! The phrase "and this is something even you must condemn" is a complete sentence, inserted parenthetically inside em dashes. The "what"-clause in question, however, is obviously not a complete sentence. I think that it works rather like the structure "What is more," with which I began the second sentence of the present paragraph.

It is extremely difficult to find a detailed analysis of sentence-initial "what"-clauses (free relative clauses, nominal relative clauses) like "what is more." The only actual discussion of them that I can find is in Quirk et al. (1985, page 1117). They classify them as a type of "comment clause." Huddleston and Pullum (2002) seem not even to mention this use of "what"-clauses, though I hope I can be proven wrong about that. Interestingly, in each of Quirk et al.'s examples, "what" functions as the subject of its clause:

What's more surprising, he didn't inform his parents.
what's more serious
what's most significant of all
what annoys me


What is also interesting (does that work?), each of those examples (save what annoys me) contains "more" or "most"—words which indicate a relationship to the foregoing context, just as "even" does in (1). Such words seem necessary. The following seems to me to be of questionable grammaticality: ?? What's surprising, he didn't inform his parents. Please note that that sentence is very different from the perfectly correct pseudo-cleft sentence What's surprising is that he didn't inform his parents.
 
@Phaedrus


If the sentence in the OP has a kind of fringe acceptability to you, do the examples in Quirk et al. strike you with the same level of acceptability?
 
@Phaedrus


If the sentence in the OP has a kind of fringe acceptability to you, do the examples in Quirk et al. strike you with the same level of acceptability?

Most of the examples I quoted from Quirk et al. sound normal enough to me, but most of them are fairly set phrases, esp. What is more (What's more). Interestingly, in the book The Comment Clause in English: Syntactic Origins and Pragmatic Development, by Laurel Brinton (2008), the one work I was able to locate which seems to contain a more detailed analysis of this construction, the discussion of it seems entirely to surround What's more, though I would have to acquire the book to be sure. In this book review of Brinton's work, the author states: "Chapter 9 looks at what's more and what else. The former dates back only to the end of the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] century, and along with which is more has its origins as a relative clause modifying a clausal element."
 
How about "What you don't know, Peter gets up at four o'clock every day"?
 
That doesn't work for me.
 
That doesn't work for me.

How about "But, what they did not know, I had the combination to the safe all along"?
Someone gave this example to me.
 
What you don't know [is that] Peter gets up at four o'clock every day.

But what they did not know [was that] I had the combination to the safe all along.

You just have to see the pauses, which are represented in these written sentences as commas, as marking an elision of the parts highlighted in brackets. Then they make grammatical sense.

Alternatively, you could transcribe these sentences parenthetically, like this:

What you don't know—Peter gets up at four o'clock every day.
But—what they did not know—I had the combination to the safe all along.

Transcribing the sentence with commas as But, what they did not know, I had the combination to the safe all along I see as poor transcription, rather than as any kind of construction in itself.
 
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