He told me today that he saw/he'd seen you

[EngLearner]

Scenario #1:

A: Why didn't you say "hello" to my boss when you saw him at the mall this morning?
B: And how would I've known who your boss was? I've never met him before.
A: He told me today that he saw/he'd seen you and I asked him if you said "hello".

Scenario #2:

A: Why didn't you say "hello" to my boss when you saw him at the mall two weeks ago?
B: And how would I've known who your boss was? I've never met him before.
A: He told me today that he saw/he'd seen you and I asked him if you said "hello".

Are "saw" and "had seen" both correct in either scenario?

 

[emsr2d2]

I prefer "he'd seen" in both scenarios but I don't have a huge objection to "he saw". In this context, it doesn't matter whether it was this morning or two weeks ago.

Note that "Hello" should be capitalised in both dialogues. It's a complete sentence and should therefore be capitalised inside quotation marks.

 

[5jj]

This is the tenth or eleventh thread you have started on past vs present perfect, @EngLearner. Are you still really unsure about this?

 

[EngLearner]

Are you still really unsure about this?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

[emsr2d2]

Are you sure that making up your own scenarios and then just asking us to choose between the tenses is actually helping you? I suspect you might find it more helpful to take time out to study the use of the tenses (using a good textbook, preferably with exercises and an answer key) until you really think you've got a handle on it.

 

[5jj]

Try to remember that, whatever some student grammars appear to suggest, the choice of tense/aspect when we are talking about situations in the recent past that may have some relevance to the present depends on how the speaker views the situation at the moment of speaking. As you have seen in your recent threads, there is often no absolute rule on which should be used.

 

[jutfrank]

Are "saw" and "had seen" both correct in either scenario?

I wonder how this question is working out for you, EngLearner. Do you find it productive?

 

[EngLearner]

Are you sure that making up your own scenarios and then just asking us to choose between the tenses is actually helping you?

Yes.

I suspect you might find it more helpful to take time out to study the use of the tenses (using a good textbook, preferably with exercises and an answer key) until you really think you've got a handle on it.

I already know the basics, but I think my questions are specific and are not covered in grammar books. For example, the question in this thread is about backshifting in reported speech. Normally, grammar books tell us that if we have a specific time like "two days ago", then we shouldn't backshift. For example, if John said to me today: "I saw Peter two days ago", then in reported speech that becomes: "John told me today that he saw Peter two days ago." The past perfect "had seen" would be wrong in this case. On the other hand, if we don't have a time marker like "two days ago", then we should backshift. For example, if John said to me today: "I went to the supermarket and bought some fruit. Would you like an apple?", then that should be reported like this: "John told me today that he'd gone to the supermarket and bought some fruit. He then offered me an apple." So, in this case "went" becomes "had gone" in reported speech. But there are a lot of exceptions to that rule (hence my question in post #1). In the examples in post #1, there's the time marker "this morning", and both the speaker and the listener know that the seeing of the boss happened this morning. So, when that is being reported, it is correct to use the simple past "saw" because "this morning" is implied:

He told me today that he he saw you (this morning) and I asked him if you said "Hello".

On the other hand, it is also correct to use the past perfect "had seen" because the seeing happened before the telling:

He told me today that he'd seen you and I asked him if you said "Hello".

I suspected that both were correct, but I still had my doubts as to whether they indeed were. Since "this morning" is closer to the present than "two weeks ago", I thought that the simple past "saw" might be preferable with the former, and that the past perfect "had seen" might be preferable with the latter.

I wonder how this question is working out for you, EngLearner.

I came up with that question because I had my doubts as to whether the simple past and the past perfect were both correct. I suspected they were, but I wasn't sure. Now that I've been told that they're both correct, I'm no longer in doubt. I've learned something new.

Do you find it productive?

Yes, I do.

 

[EngLearner]

Try to remember that, whatever some student grammars appear to suggest, the choice of tense/aspect when we are talking about situations in the recent past that may have some relevance to the present depends on how the speaker views the situation at the moment of speaking. As you have seen in your recent threads, there is often no absolute rule on which should be used.

I know, but still there are situations in which only one verb form is correct. Also, what is correct varies from person to person. By the way, the present thread is not about the simple past vs the present perfect, it's about the past perfect vs the simple past.

 

[emsr2d2]

I'm still not sure that asking us closed questions (ie those with only "Yes" or "No" as possible answers) is helping you. You're giving us one very specific sentence and asking us if both tenses are possible. If we say "Yes", all you've learnt is that they both work in that sentence.

 

[Marika33]

Are "saw" and "had seen" both correct in either scenario?

Not a teacher

I suppose your question is about the past simple / past perfect in the reported speech.
I'm no expert at all, but it seems to me that "had been" doesn't sound right in the following case:

Mike: I was born in 1996.
-->
Mike said that he was born in 1996.
Mike said that he had been born in 1996.

If I'm right, please, let me know, I'm also interested in it.

 

[EngLearner]

Mike: I was born in 1996.
-->
Mike said that he was born in 1996.
Mike said that he had been born in 1996.

Not a teacher

Since you specified when he was born in your example, I would also use the simple past "was" there and would consider the past perfect "had been" incorrect. But then I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't think my opinion matters much to you.