[Grammar] ... show us your ID card or library card to borrow lockers' key

[kadioguy]

(On a notice in a library in Taiwan)

Please put your bags in the lockers and show us your ID card or library card to borrow lockers' key.

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Could you tell me how to choose from singular and plural nouns in English? As you can see in this case, "bags" and "lockers" are used in the plural, while "ID card", "library card" and "lockers' key" are used in the singular.

I don't know why they are not in agreement. How about this one?

Please put your bag in the locker and show us your ID card or library card to borrow lockers' key.

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(Source)

 

[emsr2d2]

"bags" is plural because people might bring more than one bag.
"lockers" is plural because there is more than one locker in the building. However, the singular would also work.
"ID card" and "library card" are singular because people generally have just one ID card and/or library card.
"locker's key" is unnatural. It should read "to borrow/obtain a locker key".

 

[kadioguy]

"lockers" is plural because there is more than one locker in the building. However, the singular would also work.

"locker's key" is unnatural. It should read "to borrow/obtain a locker key".

I would think that "one locker key" is used to lock "one locker", so if the word "lockers" is used, should the word "locker keys" be used?

Please put your bags in the lockers and show us your ID card or library card to borrow locker keys.

What do you think?

 

[emsr2d2]

It wouldn't be entirely wrong, but one person doesn't need to get more than one locker key. I think they've mixed up whether they're trying to address each customer individually or all of their customers at the same time.

I would find the whole thing more natural as a personal instruction (to one person). It would be "Put your bag(s) in a locker, then show us your ID card or library card to obtain the locker key".

It needs "the locker key" at the end because you specifically want to obtain the key that fits the locker you just put your bag(s) in.

 

[emsr2d2]

Out of curiosity, do the singular/plural uses in the English translation match those in the original language?

 

[kadioguy]

Thank you for the help, emsr2d2.

I think they've mixed up whether they're trying to address each customer individually or all of their customers at the same time.

If you don't mind, I would like to do the exercise for the blue part.

Put your bags in lockers, then show us your ID cards or library cards to obtain the locker keys.

Have I done it correctly?

 

[GoesStation]

Put your bags in lockers, then show us your ID cards or library cards to obtain the locker keys.

Have I done it correctly?

Each person will normally use only one locker and possess a single ID or library card. Those nouns should be singular.

 

[kadioguy]

Out of curiosity, do the singular/plural uses in the English translation match those in the original language?

No. Chinese characters don't have affixes for the plural ones as English words do, so we don't bother to choose from them to use. On the other hand, that's why this topic in English is hard for Chinese speakers to learn.

For example,

置物櫃 can mean locker or lockers.
鑰匙 can mean key or keys.
書包 can mean bag or bags.

 

[kadioguy]

Each person will normally use only one locker and possess a single ID or library card. Those nouns should be singular.

That's true. However, emsr2d2 said in post #4 that another option is to address all of their customers at the same time.

 

[emsr2d2]

That's true. However, emsr2d2 said in post #4 that another option is to address all of their customers at the same time.

I did say that, but the fact that most people have only one ID/library card and will use only one locker is still pertinent. Let's say they started with "You all need to ...", followed by the list of instructions.

You all need put your bag(s) in a locker, and then show us your ID card or library card to obtain your locker key.

No one would think that it means that everyone is going to share a locker and an ID/library card.

 

[kadioguy]

You all need put your bag(s) in a locker, and then show us your ID card or library card to obtain your locker key.

No one would think that it means that everyone is going to share a locker and an ID/library card.

That's interesting. So "You all" refers to all the customers, and then the perspective is changed to each customer individually : "put your bag(s) in a locker, and then show us your ID card or library card to obtain your locker key".

I thought in #6 that "many people" so "many lockers", "many ID cards or library cards", and "locker keys. That's reason I said:

Put your bags in lockers, then show us your ID cards or library cards to obtain the locker keys.

Doesn't it work?

 

[emsr2d2]

No. I don't know how else to explain it. Such instructions are usually written so that each individual who reads them feel that they are aimed at them personally. If it said "show us your ID cards", each person would think they had to produce more than one card.

 

[kadioguy]

No. I don't know how else to explain it. Such instructions are usually written so that each individual who reads them feel that they are aimed at them personally. If it said "show us your ID cards", each person would think they had to produce more than one card.

Then I am a little confused. Please compare it to this case:

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a. Face masks must be worn in the PX mart.

b. A face mask must be worn in the PX mart.

Do (a) and (b) have the same effect?


GoesStation:

Not exactly. Sentence A makes it clearer that everyone present in the store has to wear a mask. Sentence B is perhaps a little vaguer. I'd use A.

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/...at-all-times?p=1584912&viewfull=1#post1584912
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I don't know why the plural version of the sentence can be used.

Face masks must be worn in the PX mart.

 

[kadioguy]

a. Face masks must be worn in the PX mart. (O)

b. A face mask must be worn in the PX mart. (O)

c. Put your bags in lockers, then show us your ID cards or library cards to obtain the locker keys. (X)

d. Put your bag(s) in a locker, and then show us your ID card or library card to obtain your locker key. (O)

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Could you tell me why (c) is not OK while (a) is OK?

 

[kadioguy]

a. Face masks must be worn in the PX mart. (O)

b. A face mask must be worn in the PX mart. (O)

c. Put your bags in lockers, then show us your ID cards or library cards to obtain the locker keys. (X)

d. Put your bag(s) in a locker, and then show us your ID card or library card to obtain your locker key. (O)

I have a new thought.

Can we say:

Such instructions as (d) are usually written so that each individual who reads them feel that they are aimed at them personally, whereas some instructions can be written for all the people as (a) or for each individual as (b).

 

[jutfrank]

Basically, yes.

The plural version is more appropriate in formal notices, since that way is less personal. Compare the following two ways of saying exactly the same thing:

Please put your bag in a locker
Bags must be placed in lockers

Can you sense that the latter sentence is much more formal?

 

[kadioguy]

The plural version is more appropriate in formal notices, since that way is less personal. Compare the following two ways of saying exactly the same thing:

Please put your bag in a locker
Bags must be placed in lockers

Can you sense that the latter sentence is much more formal?

Yes, the latter sentence sounds more like a rule or a law.

PS - Do you agree that in post #14 (a) and (b) are both OK, although (a) may be better, or do you think that only (a) is OK whereas (b) is unnatural?

 

[jutfrank]

Yes, the latter sentence sounds more like a rule or a law.

That's right. In general, you can think of formal language as being less 'personal' than informal language. This effect can be achieved through choice of both grammar and vocabulary. Using plural nouns instead of singular ones is a way of generalising, and this generalising is a way of writing more impersonally.

Do you agree that in post #14 (a) and (b) are both OK, although (a) may be better, or do you think that only (a) is OK whereas (b) is unnatural?

Think about what I've already said. Think about how this sentence would be used. Would it be written or spoken? Where might it be heard or seen? What level of formality do you think would be appropriate?