Using "and" to join two negative verb phrases.

[kachibi]

Usually, native speakers teach me to join 2 negative verb phrases by using "neither..nor", "be not...nor" or "or":

1) I have neither revised my exam nor turned in my homework.
2) I have not revised my exam, nor have I turned in my homework.
3) I have not revised my exam or turned in my homework.

But is it correct to use "and" to link up 2 negative phrases?

i.e. I have not revised my exam and turned in my homework.

If you advise me against using it, can you provide me some reasons? Like, it is not grammatical at all to link 2 negative verb phrases with an "and".

 

[bhaisahab]

Usually, native speakers teach me to join 2 negative verb phrases by using "neither..nor", "be not...nor" or "or":

1) I have neither revised my exam nor turned in my homework.
2) I have not revised my exam, nor have I turned in my homework.
3) I have not revised my exam or turned in my homework.

But is it correct to use "and" to link up 2 negative phrases?

i.e. I have not revised my exam and turned in my homework.

If you advise me against using it, can you provide me some reasons? Like, it is not grammatical at all to link 2 negative verb phrases with an "and".

No it's not correct. It doesn't make sense.

 

[kachibi]

But I want some explanations.
In what way is using "and" in this kind of double negative verb sentence not grammatical?

 

[bhaisahab]

But I want some explanations.
In what way is using "and" in this kind of double negative verb sentence not grammatical?

I didn't say it wasn't grammatical, I said it didn't make sense.

 

[BobSmith]

I have not revised my exam and turned in my homework.

[Not a teacher]

If you said this, most people would understand what you mean, and I would guess most people wouldn't even notice a problem with it. I'm not saying it's correct, though. A different, perhaps not so related example I hear all the time is:

1: So, you didn't end up going to the movies?
2: No.

Did 2 go? No, but they should have said "yes" to not going.

 

[5jj]

If you said this, most people would understand what you mean, and I would guess most people wouldn't even notice a problem with it.
That may be true in AmE, - I don't know - but it sounds very strange in BrE.

A different, perhaps not so related example I hear all the time is:

1: So, you didn't end up going to the movies?
2: No.

Did 2 go? No, but they should have said "yes" to not going.
No they shouldn't. In some languages it is normal to confirm the truth of the statement, but in English we normally confirm the affirmation/negation of the situation spoken of:

A: You don't like Lady Gaga, do you?
B: No(, I don't (like Lady Gaga))..... or .....Yes (, do(like Lady Gaga)).

5

 

[BobSmith]

A: You don't like Lady Gaga, do you?

... is cheating a tad, because the response is now in answer to "do you", which is the affirmative, but I see your point. I'm sure I'm in the minority, expecting a literal/logical answer. Thinking about it more though, I often hear people reply with "correct", and I guess this is because they don't want to seem ambiguous?

 

[5jj]

A: You don't like Lady Gaga, do you?

... is cheating a tad, because the response is now in answer to "do you", which is the affirmative, but I see your point.

it makes no difference if I make a negative question tag:

A: You like Lady Gaga, don't you?
B: No (, I don't (like Lady Gaga))..... or .....Yes (, do(like Lady Gaga)).

5

 

[kachibi]

Rather than discussing the question tag, I hope someone can offer some help on my sentence.

 

[bhaisahab]

Rather than discussing the question tag, I hope someone can offer some help on my sentence.

As I said before, your sentence doesn't make sense.

 

[bhaisahab]

Rather than discussing the question tag, I hope someone can offer some help on my sentence.

"I have not revised my exam" this is negative. "turned in my homework" this is neutral.

 

[kachibi]

"I have not revised my exam" this is negative. "turned in my homework" this is neutral.

"I have not revised my exam and turned in my homework." << Can't the "have not" here be applied to both actions at the same time with the use of "and": revised my exam + turned in my homework, and hence have not done both actions?

 

[bhaisahab]

"I have not revised my exam and turned in my homework." << Can't the "have not" here be applied to both actions at the same time with the use of "and": revised my exam + turned in my homework, and hence have not done both actions?

No, not in my opinion.

 

[BobSmith]

[still not a teacher]

You won't get anyone to ever say your construction is correct (and, indeed, it is not). I can't tell you why precisely, without researching more. I can tell you that if you said that TO ME, I wouldn't think twice about it and would know what you intended.

Now, I can think of one case where, TO ME, it would be correct:

Teacher: For full credit you have to revise your exam and turn in your homework. Have you?
Student: Have I what?
Teacher: Have you revised your exam and turned in your homework?!
Student: I'm sorry, I have not revised my exam and turned in my homework.

And I'm sure I'm the only one here that will think this is acceptable. I think your question is a great one, I just don't have the answer for you, and my bed is calling my name.

 

[kachibi]

thanks Bobsmith for your detailed answer..

I still believe that there will be someone who can comment on my "have not" sentence.

 

[Raymott]

thanks Bobsmith for your detailed answer..

I still believe that there will be someone who can comment on my "have not" sentence.

Is this your "have not" sentence? - "I have not revised my exam and turned in my homework."
This does not mean "I have not revised my exam or turned in my homework." It's wrong.
But you've been told that.
If English were mathematics, you could probably write: "I have not (revised my exam and turned in my homework.)" But it's not.
What else exactly do you want to know?

​

 

[kachibi]

Is this your "have not" sentence? - "I have not revised my exam and turned in my homework."
This does not mean "I have not revised my exam or turned in my homework." It's wrong.
But you've been told that.
If English were mathematics, you could probably write: "I have not (revised my exam and turned in my homework.)" But it's not.
What else exactly do you want to know?

​

mmm..I want to know why it is wrong. In what way(s) it has a problem(s).

 

[5jj]

mmm..I want to know why it is wrong. In what way(s) it has a problem(s).

It is simply not the way English works. As Raymott suggested, English is not mathematics; it does not follow the precise rules of logic.

 

[Raymott]

mmm..I want to know why it is wrong. In what way(s) it has a problem(s).

"I have not done X and Y" is wrong because i) it's ambiguous, and ii) we have "or" to mean "neither X nor Y", and iii) we don't use 'and' in this way.
It's ambiguous because we don't know if "not" distributes over both X and Y. Even if it did, "not (X and Y)" could mean "not both". So your sentence could mean that you have not both revised your exam and turned in your homework. You might have done one or the other, but not both.
You'll just have to accept that this isn't the way we say, "I've done neither X nor Y".

 

[BobSmith]

thanks Bobsmith for your detailed answer..

[not a teacher]

I want to be clear that I'm not saying that this construction is correct. I'm just saying that I would understand what you meant, and I've heard people use it.

I remember learning that in Spanish, a double negative is perfectly acceptable, even required. I still think that's somewhat silly (we do not allow it in English) as it doesn't make logical sense TO ME, but of course, we have to accept that that is just the way it is.