nonperfect forms with since

ostap77 · Oct 30, 2011

Could I use infomally the past simple in both clauses with "since"?

"I lost ten pounds since I started swimming."

5jj · Oct 30, 2011

Of course you could say it, ostap. However, for most speakers of BrE, the word would be 'unnaturally' rather than 'informally'.

ostap77 · Nov 1, 2011

5jj said:
Of course you could say it, ostap. However, for most speakers of BrE, the word would be 'unnaturally' rather than 'informally'.

I've been reading grammar text-books here's what I've come across in "A Student's Grammar of The English Language" Sidney Greenbaum,Randolph Quirk p.296

"In informal AmE, and increasingly in informal BrE, nonperfect forms commonly used in the matrix clauses; wrote insted of have written....... in(2)"

2)Since leaving home, Larry has written to his parents just once.

Tdol · Nov 1, 2011

You'll hear it. However, people are more likely to register it as an error with non-native speakers than as spot-on current informal use that is creeping in among younger native speakers. I also think they're overstating it for BrE- it is growing, but I wouldn't call it common yet. ;-)

5jj · Nov 1, 2011

ostap77 said:
"In informal AmE, and increasingly in informal BrE, nonperfect forms commonly used in the matrix clauses; 'wrote' insted of 'have written'....... in(2)"

2)Since leaving home, Larry has written to his parents just once.

Fine. As I wrote (emphasis added), " However, for most speakers of BrE, the word would be 'unnaturally' rather than 'informally". That is still my opinion.

~Mav~ · Nov 1, 2011

A slightly different structure, but it sounds absolutely natural to me:

"Since she's been gone I want no one to talk to me."

Not only because it was written by George Harrison ( ;-) ), but I simply cannot imagine putting it with Present Perfect: Since she's been gone *I have wanted no one to talk to me." Maybe it's correct (Is it? :roll: ), but it sounds unnatural. (*[strike]I have wanted...[/strike]) On the other hand, "since she's been gone..." is perfectly correct, IMO. The present perfect emphasizes that she is still gone, and he still wants no one to talk to him, but there is a chance that she'll come back. (Hence the present perfect, "Since she's been gone...) Am I right :?:

PS: This has not much to do with the original sentence, but I think it also falls into the category of "nonperfect forms with since". I hope ostap doesn't mind this post.

5jj · Nov 1, 2011

~Mav~ said:
A slightly different structure, but it sounds absolutely natural to me:....."Since she's been gone I want no one to talk to me."

[...] I simply cannot imagine putting it with Present Perfect: Since she's been gone *I have wanted no one to talk to me." Maybe it's correct (Is it? :roll: ),
Yes
but it sounds unnatural. (*[strike]I have wanted...[/strike]) On the other hand, "since she's been gone..." is perfectly correct, IMO. The present perfect emphasizes that she is still gone, and he still wants no one to talk to him, but there is a chance that she'll come back. (Hence the present perfect, "Since she's been gone...)

That's an interesting one. I think that the 'since she's been gone' is acceptable (thinking of 'gone' as 'away'), though I don't think I would find 'since she's left' natural. 'I have wanted' sounds - to me - far more natural than 'I want'. Indeed, the present sounds unacceptable.

I think this is the sort of 'derailed grammar' that we might well hear in conversation as the mind jumps from one thought to another, but I don't feel that it is acceptable in writing. Let's see what others think.

emsr2d2 · Nov 1, 2011

I also think it's the kind of "derailed grammar" (nice phrase, 5jj) that we hear all the time in song lyrics!

5jj · Nov 1, 2011

emsr2d2 said:
I also think it's the kind of "derailed grammar" (nice phrase, 5jj) that we hear all the time in song lyrics!

I have liked the idea of grammar being 'derailed' ever since BobK used the verb in this thread: I'm scared he'd deny it

ostap77 · Nov 1, 2011

~Mav~ said:
A slightly different structure, but it sounds absolutely natural to me:

"Since she's been gone I want no one to talk to me."

Not only because it was written by George Harrison ( ;-) ), but I simply cannot imagine putting it with Present Perfect: Since she's been gone *I have wanted no one to talk to me." Maybe it's correct (Is it? :roll: ), but it sounds unnatural. (*[strike]I have wanted...[/strike]) On the other hand, "since she's been gone..." is perfectly correct, IMO. The present perfect emphasizes that she is still gone, and he still wants no one to talk to him, but there is a chance that she'll come back. (Hence the present perfect, "Since she's been gone...) Am I right :?:

PS: This has not much to do with the original sentence, but I think it also falls into the category of "nonperfect forms with since". I hope ostap doesn't mind this post.

Here's another one.

"I('ve) got the same habits since I was twelve."

~Mav~ · Nov 1, 2011

*** NOT A TEACHER ***

5jj said:
'I have wanted' sounds - to me - far more natural than 'I want'. Indeed, the present sounds unacceptable.

I did NOT mean to stretch it; I was actually under the impression that in this particular case, the simple present is natural.

It's probably because I have known this song ("Don't Bother Me" - I hope you won't say this to me :-D ) for ages, and I thought it was idiomatic.
All right, now I know that we have to use perfect forms at all times. (Since she's been gone I have wanted no one to talk to me. :tick: )
In defence of song lyrics (which, believe me, are extremely useful for learners

), another great performer, Sting, used it correctly:

"Since you've gone I've been lost without a trace." (Of course, it should read, "since you've been gone", but regarding the use of present perfect, it's correct, isn't it?)

I know that probably no native speakers would interpret "since" as "because", but in theory, it might be read, "Because she has left me, I'm lost.", and if this is the case, it must be correct to say, "Since she's left me, I'm lost." (As I said, I don't want to stretch this, I would have just liked to point out a possible explanation for the use of simple present.

5jj said:
~Mav~ said:

On the other hand, "since she's been gone..." is perfectly correct, IMO. The present perfect emphasizes that she is still gone, and he still wants no one to talk to him, but there is a chance that she'll come back. (Hence the present perfect, "Since she's been gone...)

Click to expand...

That's an interesting one. I think that the 'since she's been gone' is acceptable (thinking of 'gone' as 'away'), though I don't think I would find 'since she's left' natural.

I feel that in some cases, the simple past can't convey the meaning. Eg., "Since I have been visiting UsingEnglish on regular basis, my English has been improved." (Is this correct? I think so, but since there is so much confusion about "since", I would like to know it for sure.

) I do not want to bypass the problem by saying, "Since I started visiting..." (...which is probably the "safe bet".)
Or how about this: "Since I have known her, I have felt younger." Is this correct? (We met, we got to know each other, we still know each other, and she has changed me for the better....) Again, I do NOT want to bypass the problem by saying, "I have felt much younger ever since we first met", or something like that.

Thank you so much for your patience.

:up:

5jj · Nov 1, 2011

ostap77 said:
Here's another one.

"I('ve) got the same habits since I was twelve."

NO

ostap77 · Nov 1, 2011

5jj said:
NO

Could you elaborate on this one? No-super totally wrong?

5jj · Nov 1, 2011

~Mav~ said:
"Since you've gone I've been lost without a trace." (Of course, it should read, "since you've been gone", but regarding the use of present perfect, it's correct, isn't it?)
Well, since you asked ;-), no. 'You' went in the past.

I know that probably no native speakers would interpret "since" as "because", but in theory, it might be read, "Because she has left me, I'm lost.", and if this is the case, it must be correct to say, "Since she's left me, I'm lost." (As I said, I don't want to stretch this, I would have just liked to point out a possible explanation for the use of simple present.
umm...err. OK, It's possible but, in my opinion, highly unlikely.

I feel that in some cases, the simple past can't convey the meaning. Eg., "Since I have been visiting UsingEnglish on regular basis, my English has been improved." (Is this correct? I think so, but since there is so much confusion about "since", I would like to know it for sure. ) I do not want to bypass the problem by saying, "Since I started visiting..." (...which is probably the "safe bet".)
Where do you find these problems? :shock:
The answer to your first question is 'yes'. If the verb after 'since' denotes a punctual action - something that happened at one past point in time, then only a past tense is natural. This is why I said in an earlier post that I did not find 'since she's left ...' natural.

However, if the verb after 'since' denotes a situation that continues up to the present moment, then the present perfect appears to be possible. This is why 'since she's been gone (=away) ...' appears to be aceptable. So, 'since I've first visited UE' is not OK, but 'since I've been visiting UE' is.

Or how about this: "Since I have known her, I have felt younger." Is this correct?
Yes, but 'since I've first met her' is not, because that first meeting was in the past. . 'Since I've met her' appears to be acceptable, as we can interpret this as 'since I've got to know her'

5

5jj · Nov 1, 2011

ostap77 said:
Could you elaborate on this one? No-super totaly wrong?

It's ostaply wrong. One can't say more than that. ;-)

ostap77 · Nov 1, 2011

5jj said:
It's ostaply wrong. One can't say more than that. ;-)

You would be totally surprised what you can hear from native speakers in an informal conversation!

5jj · Nov 1, 2011

ostap77 said:
You would be totally surprised what you can hear from native speakers in an informal conversation!

No, I wouldn't, as I have pointed out to you more than once in the past. I have also pointed out that most people come to this forum to learn about the English that is generally considered to be acceptable by moderately educated speakers in situations that are not too informal.

~Mav~ · Nov 1, 2011

Dear Jed,

Thank you very much for your instructive reply. :up: Now I seem to understand this topic. Unfortunately, most grammar books have failed to elaborate on this, only providing the well-known pattern, "Present Perfect + since + a point in time". (Among other things, that's why we desperately need that - hopefully upcoming - "Definitive Book of English Grammar". ;-) )

5jj said:
Where do you find these problems? :roll:

In the abyss of my mind.

5jj said:
Well, since you asked , no. 'You' went in the past.

No, it was Sting's girlfriend who went. :mrgreen: Joking aside, that's why I said that it should read, "Since you've been gone..." The present perfect emphasizes that she is still gone, but there is a chance that she'll come back. (You have approved this interpretation.

)

5jj said:
Yes, but 'since I've first met her' is not (correct)...

Yes, but my alternative sentence was, "I have felt much younger ever since we first met." I'm glad that my original sentence, "Since I have known her, I have felt younger." is correct.

Thank you again for your help. :up:

emsr2d2 · Nov 1, 2011

~Mav~ said:
*** NOT A TEACHER ***

I know that probably no native speakers would interpret "since" as "because" ...

I'm not sure if you meant that solely in regard to the line "Since she's been gone..." etc but just in case you didn't, and you meant it as a general statement, I can certainly confirm that we use "since" to mean "because" quite a lot.

Since you've clearly decided not to do your homework, you can help me prepare dinner instead.
I'm going to get my hair cut since I have to go to the salon to get my nails done anyway.
Since it's snowing, I'm going to ski to work.

It could be argued that "since" means something else entirely, but "because" works in those examples.

~Mav~ · Nov 1, 2011

emsr2d2 said:
I'm not sure if you meant that solely in regard to the line "Since she's been gone..." etc...

Yes, I was referring to my examples only, especially to that line from, "Every Breath You Take". (I, too, often use "since" to mean "because".) I should have been more specific.

Thank you for having pointed this out. :up:

nonperfect forms with since

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