tried not to drink any saltwater.

I learned in this website that "tried to do something" always means a failure in the past, while it is unclear in the present or future. So the underlined should mean "they failed to drink any saltwater, so they eventually drank some saltwater", but the question's answer shows it is false that they drank saltwater and this makes me confused. This is a qustion in a Korean grammar book, so I doubt it may be wrong.
Please let me know if "tried to do something" always means a failure, while "tried doing something" means a success.

ex)Two fishermen are coming home from sea. They were found in a lifeboat, 7000km from home. How did this happen? The two men were fishing when their boat had a problem. They got into thier lifeboat. But they were pushed far away from land by the wind. When they were found, they were staying alive by eating fish. They also tried not to drink any saltwater. They lived in the lifeboat for four months. Doctors say the two men will be feeling better ver soon.
Q. Select which is not true in the paragraph.-5)
1)..2)...3)..4).
.5)The two fishermen stayed alive eating fish and drinking saltwater.

They did NOT stay alive by eating fish and drinking saltwater. They stayed alive by eating fish and avoiding drinking saltwater.

SoothingDave said:

They did NOT stay alive by eating fish and drinking saltwater. They stayed alive by eating fish and avoiding drinking saltwater.

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Then what about the meaning of "to try do something in the past"? Did it fail or succeed?

They likely failed and did, in fact, drink some seawater.

But they did not survive by doing this. They survived in spite of doing this.

Okay, thanks for your answer, but I'd like to focus on the difference between "try to" and "try ~ing", not on the contextual inference of what happened.

Is this correct in terms of the past? I learned from this website that "tried to do something" always means a failure, not an unclear result.
1. He tried to open the door - He failed to open the door
2. He tried opening the door - He actually opened the door.

While in the present and the future, it is kind of vague.
1. He is trying to calling her or (He will try to call her) - uncertainty of success, could be a success or a failure
2. He is trying calling her or (He will try calling her) - closer to success as it means actually doing it.

keannu said:

Okay, thanks for your answer, but I'd like to focus on the difference between "try to" and "try ~ing", not on the contextual inference of what happened.

Is this correct in terms of the past? I learned from this website that "tried to do something" always means a failure, not an unclear result.
1. He tried to open the door - He failed to open the door
2. He tried opening the door - He actually opened the door.

While in the present and the future, it is kind of vague.
1. He is trying to calling her or (He will try to call her) - uncertainty of success, could be a success or a failure
2. He is trying calling her or (He will try calling her) - closer to success as it means actually doing it.

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"He tried to open the door" and "He tried opening the door" can both mean that he put his hand on the handle and attempted to change the door's status from closed to open. Neither statement gives any clue as to whether or not he was successful.

He tried opening the door but it was clearly locked from the outside so he gave up.
He tried to open the door but it was clearly locked from the outside so he gave up.

In your original example, the two fishermen knew that it is very bad for your health to drink saltwater. However, when you are stranded at sea and you are surrounded by water, it is probably very tempting to drink it even though it is saltwater. They tried to avoid drinking the sea water. My personal opinion is that it's not entirely clear if they did in fact give in and drink a little. It only says they tried not to drink it. They may have drunk a little but somehow managed to survive four months on almost nothing but fish (I imagine they did the obvious thing and drank their own urine for hydration).

emsr2d2 said:

"He tried to open the door" and "He tried opening the door" can both mean that he put his hand on the handle and attempted to change the door's status from closed to open. Neither statement gives any clue as to whether or not he was successful.

He tried opening the door but it was clearly locked from the outside so he gave up.
He tried to open the door but it was clearly locked from the outside so he gave up.

In your original example, the two fishermen knew that it is very bad for your health to drink saltwater. However, when you are stranded at sea and you are surrounded by water, it is probably very tempting to drink it even though it is saltwater. They tried to avoid drinking the sea water. My personal opinion is that it's not entirely clear if they did in fact give in and drink a little. It only says they tried not to drink it. They may have drunk a little but somehow managed to survive four months on almost nothing but fish (I imagine they did the obvious thing and drank their own urine for hydration).

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I'm pretty much confused as 5jedjon told me "try to" always means a failure in the past and "try ~ing" a success. I don't know why different native speakers have different opinions about the same thing.

emsr2d2 said:

"He tried to open the door" and "He tried opening the door" can both mean that he put his hand on the handle and attempted to change the door's status from closed to open. Neither statement gives any clue as to whether or not he was successful.

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I disagree.

He tried opening the door but it was clearly locked from the outside so he gave up."

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For me this is not a natural sentence. If he tried opening it, he actually opened it - in order to discover something, as in, "The room was very stuffy, so he tried opening the door, but that didn't help much".

"He tried to open the door but it was clearly locked from the outside so he gave up."
That one is fine.

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In talking about past 'tries' the difference is very clear to me. If what is to be tried is in the future, then whether the try succeeds or not is unclear. Even here, however, the implication in such sentences as 'Try opening the window' is that you will succceed in carrying out this experiment; In 'Try to open the window', the implication is that you may not be able to open it.

fivejedjon said:

I disagree.For me this is not a natural sentence. If he tried opening it, he actually opened it - in order to discover something, as in, "The room was very stuffy, so he tried opening the door, but that didn't help much".
In talking about past 'tries' the difference is very clear to me. If what is to be tried is in the future, then whether the try succeeds or not is unclear. Even here, however, the implication in such sentences as 'Try opening the window' is that you will succceed in carrying out this experiment; In 'Try to open the window', the implication is that you may not be able to open it.

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Okay, Master, then do you also agree the the seamen failed to avoid drinking sea water, so they finally drank it?

keannu said:

Okay, Master, then do you also agree the the seamen failed to avoid drinking sea water, so they finally drank it?

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I agree with Soothing Dave's answer in post #4.

It is not possible to say for sure, but the implication of 'tried not to' is that they probably failed - though this does not necessarily mean that they drank a lot. If they really didn't drink any, then the writer is more likely to write, "They managed not to drink..."

fivejedjon said:

I disagree.For me this is not a natural sentence. If he tried opening it, he actually opened it - in order to discover something, as in, "The room was very stuffy, so he tried opening the door, but that didn't help much".
In talking about past 'tries' the difference is very clear to me. If what is to be tried is in the future, then whether the try succeeds or not is unclear. Even here, however, the implication in such sentences as 'Try opening the window' is that you will succceed in carrying out this experiment; In 'Try to open the window', the implication is that you may not be able to open it.

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As usual, we have interesting and slightly differing views on something.

To me, this is a perfectly natural (if a bit off-the-wall) conversation:

Me: I can do anything.
You: Oh really?
Me: Yes. Absolutely anything. There's nothing I can't do.
You: OK. Try opening the door.
Me (grudgingly, having tried and failed): OK, so I couldn't do that. It must be locked.

Or how about:

Wife: The car won't start.
Husband: Don't be silly. The car is fine.
Wife: No, really, it won't start.
Husband: It's probably you. You must be doing something wrong.
Wife: No. I tried starting it for over ten minutes.
Husband: You're useless!
Wife: Fine. You try starting it then.
Husband (5 minutes later): How strange. You're right. I'll have to call the garage.

I agree that "Try to open the door" and "Try to start the car" would mean exactly the same thing as the phrases I used, but I don't agree that my use of "Try opening/starting" suggests success.

emsr2d2 said:

Me: I can do anything.
You: Oh really?
Me: Yes. Absolutely anything. There's nothing I can't do.
You: OK. Try opening the door.By using this form, the speaker is implying, I feel, that the door can be opened, knowing that it cannot. The message is, "Open the door and see what happens".
Me (grudgingly, having tried and failed): OK, so I couldn't do that. It must be locked.


[...]
Husband: It's probably you. You must be doing something wrong.
Wife: No. I tried starting it for over ten minutes.
Husband: You're useless!
Wife: Fine. You try starting it then.
Husband (5 minutes later): How strange. You're right. I'll have to call the garage.

[...] I don't agree that my use of "Try opening/starting" suggests success.
I think that they do, and that is why, for me, the forms I have underlined are unnatural.

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Quirk et al (1985.1191) have this to say:

"Sheila tried [to bribe the jailor (1 )] / [bribing the jailor (2)]

[1] implies that Sheila attempted an act of bribery, but did not manage it; [2] implies that she actually did bribe the jailor, but without (necessarily) achieving what she wanted."

fivejedjon said:

Quirk et al (1985.1191) have this to say:

"Sheila tried [to bribe the jailor (1 )] / [bribing the jailor (2)]

[1] implies that Sheila attempted an act of bribery, but did not manage it; [2] implies that she actually did bribe the jailor, but without (necessarily) achieving what she wanted."

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Oh, believe me, I never dispute what it might or might not say in a grammar book etc. I was only pointing out that I use, and always have used "try + inf" and "try verb+ing" to mean the same thing.

It's entirely possible I've been using it wrongly for 40-odd years, but it's still what I say and what I hear.

As I said, I entirely agree that "He tried opening the door" can mean "He opened the door as a kind of test exercise!" so for me "He tried opening the door" is ambiguous whereas "He tried to open the door" is not.

emsr2d2 said:

Oh, believe me, I never dispute what it might or might not say in a grammar book etc. I was only pointing out that I use, and always have used "try + inf" and "try verb+ing" to mean the same thing.

It's entirely possible I've been using it wrongly for 40-odd years, but it's still what I say and what I hear.

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I would not say that you have been using it wrongly. It seems to me that you may have been using it idiosyncratically.

I did not quote Quirk to 'prove' my point - merely to show that I was not alone in my opinion. It could well be that my opinion, which seems to be the opinion of some leading writers, is not shared by many speakers. I respect the opinions that you have expressed in other threads, and it could well be that I am being overly prescriptive here. I hope other native speakers will join this thread to give us their opinions.

emsr2d2 said:

As I said, I entirely agree that "He tried opening the door" can mean "He opened the door as a kind of test exercise!" so for me "He tried opening the door" is ambiguous whereas "He tried to open the door" is not.

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I agree with this.

That bhai agrees with emsr2d2 suggests that my way of looking at it (with Quirk's support) is one way, but it is not the way.Hey ho. I have learnt something today.

emsr2d2 said:

Oh, believe me, I never dispute what it might or might not say in a grammar book etc. I was only pointing out that I use, and always have used "try + inf" and "try verb+ing" to mean the same thing.

It's entirely possible I've been using it wrongly for 40-odd years, but it's still what I say and what I hear.

As I said, I entirely agree that "He tried opening the door" can mean "He opened the door as a kind of test exercise!" so for me "He tried opening the door" is ambiguous whereas "He tried to open the door" is not.

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Isn't it like "He tried opening the door" has an obvious meaning, not ambiguous? and ambiguous for "He tried to open the door?" Anyway, because of your opposite confusing opinions, I"m getting more headache and I'm really worried whether to revert or maintain the previous explanation to my students that "try to" implies a failure while "try ~ing" implies a success and in the past the both are quite clear.
I don't want to feel like I faked my students...

[FONT=바탕]But I personally believe the following definitions.[/FONT]

[FONT=바탕]1.Try to do something-‘ you make an effort [/FONT][FONT=바탕]to do[/FONT][FONT=바탕] it.' - You don't actually do it, just making efforts.[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]2.Try doing something -[/FONT][FONT=바탕]‘ You [/FONT][FONT=바탕]do it[/FONT][FONT=바탕] in order to find out how useful, effective, or enjoyable it is.' - You actually do it.[/FONT]


[FONT=바탕]According to the definitions, I think 5jedjon's opinion is correct, but I think any language speakers can use a little bit distorted meanings for certain phrases. We Koreans also make lots of expressions out of grammar. This is my opinion.[/FONT]

keannu said:

[FONT=바탕]According to the definitions, I think 5jedjon's opinion is correct, but I think any language speakers can use a little bit distorted meanings for certain phrases. [/FONT]

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As Quirk and a number of other writers agree with my opinion, you can safely give it to your students. However, it is clear that a number of native speakers do not always feel this difference with the -ing form, and your students perhaps need to be aware of this.

The other opinion is not 'distorted'. It is not uncommon for there to be differences in the way different speakers use different structures, and these different ways may be equally acceptable. I think that my usage is the more common way in BrE.; that does not make the other one wrong.

In case you are wondering if this kind of difference leads to confusion sometimes, the answer is 'yes', but not very often. We rarely hear/see one sentence out of context; The overall context is what makes the meaning clear, and the user of one form may not even notice that another speaker has used it with a slightly different meaning in one sentence.