die = dice?

[bieasy]

Hi,

Why do you say 'the die is cast' and not 'the dice is cast'?

 

[bieasy]

Die is the singular of dice. This is an old Roman saying meaning that the course has been chosen and cannot be changed.

I always thought that dice was singular and dices was its plural. thks.

 

[Abstract Idea]

I always thought that dice was singular and dices was its plural. thks.

The words dices and dies are also registered in dictionaries, see for instance:
dice: Definition from Answers.com
Die - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

It seems that dice is also used to mean just one die, take a look at this old thread:
https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/teaching-english/103523-dice-ideas.html

 

[euncu]

Why isn't it "The die has been cast" ?

 

[euncu]

Thank you Gillnetter for your elaborate reply.
If I get what you said correctly, the phrase once was translated word-to-word and it has been being used this way. But my question stands, if it wasn't Caesar, let's say, if it was you who first said it, both as a native-speaker and as an English teacher, how would you say it?

 

[euncu]

I most probably wouldn't say anything like this, but if I had to, "The die is cast."

Ok, then, it's time for me to review my grammar knowledge over again. Yes, I grant that a die is cast, or is tossed in the air, or is kept in a pocket, or anything can be done to a die is done. But I can't understand the underlying grammatical or semantical reason to say it the way you said instead of "the die has been cast".
If it was something like that;
The die is cast and a soul is doomed.(Let's embellish it; one, you die, six you live. ;-)) It would be ok to my ears (my non-native ears of course)

But in such a case below, I'd expect "has been";
The die has been cast, and there is nothing we can do. (We are so helpless!)

If, by any means, you feel that I've been bothering you with the same question over and over again, feel free to omit this one last question of me. I've just felt a bit confused about your simple present choice over present perfect.

 

[euncu]

Ok, so far, no die has been cast, but instead "No Dice!" has been cast. :-(

 

[Heterological]

Sometimes we use the simple present instead of the present perfect as a way of lending an air of gravity and permanence to an act. Where we might say, "it has been done," we could instead choose to say, "it is done," with a very subtle undertone that what was done was something grave and significant, that cannot be undone. Christians celebrate the idea of Jesus' return from the dead with the phrase, "he is risen!" not "he has risen," for example.

 

[Abstract Idea]

about "He is risen"

Sometimes we use the simple present instead of the present perfect as a way of lending an air of gravity and permanence to an act. Where we might say, "it has been done," we could instead choose to say, "it is done," with a very subtle undertone that what was done was something grave and significant, that cannot be undone. Christians celebrate the idea of Jesus' return from the dead with the phrase, "he is risen!" not "he has risen," for example.

I used to think along similar lines to yours. In fact to some extent I still do.
However, I think there may be some reminiscences here of present perfect formations with "be" instead of the common "have".
See the last posts of this recent thread: https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/118814-has-2.html

But I am talking just about the nomenclature of course.
The technical name you choose to call for the formation "He is risen" does not change its meaning.

 

[konungursvia]

Die is the singular of dice. This is an old Roman saying meaning that the course has been chosen and cannot be changed.

Alea jacta est.

 

[Raymott]

Ok, then, it's time for me to review my grammar knowledge over again. Yes, I grant that a die is cast, or is tossed in the air, or is kept in a pocket, or anything can be done to a die is done. But I can't understand the underlying grammatical or semantical reason to say it the way you said instead of "the die has been cast".
If it was something like that;
The die is cast and a soul is doomed.(Let's embellish it; one, you die, six you live. ;-)) It would be ok to my ears (my non-native ears of course)

But in such a case below, I'd expect "has been";
The die has been cast, and there is nothing we can do. (We are so helpless!)

If, by any means, you feel that I've been bothering you with the same question over and over again, feel free to omit this one last question of me. I've just felt a bit confused about your simple present choice over present perfect.

You need to consider that "cast" could be the adjective from the past participle.
After the die is cast, it is a cast die. It remains cast. The die is cast.
It's true that it has been cast. If it hasn't you couldn't refer to it as a cast die.
An analogy: The door is shut / The door has been shut.
After the door has been shut, the door is shut. (unless it's opened again).

You could use either to say that the opportunity for change has been [is] lost: The die is cast, and the door is shut.

 

[euncu]

You need to consider that "cast" could be the adjective from the past participle.
After the die is cast, it is a cast die. It remains cast. The die is cast.
It's true that it has been cast. If it hasn't you couldn't refer to it as a cast die.
An analogy: The door is shut / The door has been shut.
After the door has been shut, the door is shut. (unless it's opened again).

You could use either to say that the opportunity for change has been [is] lost: The die is cast, and the door is shut.

Thank you very much for you reply.

My problem occured because I tend to think that "cast" is the verb in simple present form. When it's not a verb but an adjective it's ok for me to understand. But most of the time, it will remain ambiguous since I can't see a way how to tell them from each other.
As in the door example, let's say, The door is open. Yes, open is an adjective with no doubt, and when it is opened, it's an action described. But the verb "shut" is not as helpful as "open/opened".

P1: A door is shut.
P2: Which door is shut?
P1: No, I'm not talking about any particular doors, I mean a door is shut and is opened.
P2: And, so?

You can see my point in my lame-() imaginary dialogue. It's not clear whether I'm talking about an action or a closed door.

Anyway, the more I write the more I get confused about this issue.
By the way, when we say "What's done is done.", is it "What is done is done." or "What has done is done." ? You may easily infer from what I've written before, I'd prefer the latter.

PS: I wish Caeser would never have said that. After two thousands year later, he confused me. What was wrong with "Veni, vidi, vici" ? He should have stuck to that. ;-)

 

[Abstract Idea]

Thank you very much for you reply.

My problem occured because I tend to think that "cast" is the verb in simple present form. When it's not a verb but an adjective it's ok for me to understand. But most of the time, it will remain ambiguous since I can't see a way how to tell them from each other.
As in the door example, let's say, The door is open. Yes, open is an adjective with no doubt, and when it is opened, it's an action described. But the verb "shut" is not as helpful as "open/opened".

P1: A door is shut.
P2: Which door is shut?
P1: No, I'm not talking about any particular doors, I mean a door is shut and is opened.
P2: And, so?

You can see my point in my lame-() imaginary dialogue. It's not clear whether I'm talking about an action or a closed door.

Anyway, the more I write the more I get confused about this issue.
By the way, when we say "What's done is done.", is it "What is done is done." or "What has done is done." ? You may easily infer from what I've written before, I'd prefer the latter.

PS: I wish Caeser would never have said that. After two thousands year later, he confused me. What was wrong with "Veni, vidi, vici" ? He should have stuck to that. ;-)

I understand your doubt, perfectly. I have already thought deeply about many of these points. I don´t know anything about the structure about your mother tongue, maybe there is some interference.

What´s done is done means what is done is done. This can be interpreted either as a passive voice construction or you may consider that done plays an adjective role.


Note in English these three distinct formations:

(1) Present perfect (always formed with the auxiliary "have" plus past participle.
1a) The window has broken. (here "broken" is the past participle "break" which works as an intransitive verb)
1b) The vehicle has spawned.
1c) He has fallen.
1d) He has risen from the dead.


(2) Passive voice
2a) The window was broken. (Here "broken" is the past participle of "break" which works as a transitive verb (someone broke the window.))
2b) The vehicle has been spawned.
2c) He was risen by his Father.

(3) Verb to be + adjective
3a) The window is broken. (here "broken" is an adjective)
3b) Christ is risen!
3c) He is not fallen.



Two important notes:

N1 The situations (1) and (2) above are not mutually exclusive, you can use the passive voice and present perfect at the same time as in "A screenshot has been taken" or "The homework has been done." Those are the situations you have to use "been".

N2 There are situations in which it is difficult to decide whether the construction follows (2) or (3) above. For instance "It is done." You may interpret it as a passive voice (someone did it) or you may say that "done" works as an adjective - that is the way it is, it is "done".

PS Part of this post has been adpated from an old one from here:
https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/118814-has.html

 

[Raymott]

Thank you very much for you reply.

My problem occured because I tend to think that "cast" is the verb in simple present form. When it's not a verb but an adjective it's ok for me to understand. But most of the time, it will remain ambiguous since I can't see a way how to tell them from each other.

"The door is shut" is ambiguous to native speakers too without a context. But "The die is cast" is a known idiom.
Naturally, if you look at the instructions of a board game, and it says, "The board is opened, and players each select a token. The die is cast to determine who moves first," then "cast" is obviously the past participle and the clause is in the passive voice.

As in the door example, let's say, The door is open. Yes, open is an adjective with no doubt, and when it is opened, it's an action described. But the verb "shut" is not as helpful as "open/opened".
That's right. There is always potential confusion when the same form is used as different parts of speech.

R.