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Allen165

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I don't understand why the semicolon in the sentence below is correct; I've been told that it is.

"In 1960 there were 5 lawyers in this county; today there are 125."

For the semicolon to be correct, "today there are 125" must be an independent clause, which is defined as a group of words that contains a subject and verb and expresses a complete thought (Purdue OWL: Independent and Dependent Clauses). I don't think the clause in question fulfills the last criterion. If you were to come up to someone and say, "Today there are 125," he/she would not understand you. He/she might reply, "Today there are 125 what?" Therefore, "today there are 125" does not express a complete thought; it cannot stand on its own.

What do you think?

Thanks!
 

Raymott

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I don't understand why the semicolon in the sentence below is correct; I've been told that it is.

"In 1960 there were 5 lawyers in this county; today there are 125."

For the semicolon to be correct, "today there are 125" must be an independent clause, which is defined as a group of words that contains a subject and verb and expresses a complete thought (Purdue OWL: Independent and Dependent Clauses). I don't think the clause in question fulfills the last criterion. If you were to come up to someone and say, "Today there are 125," he/she would not understand you. He/she might reply, "Today there are 125 what?" Therefore, "today there are 125" does not express a complete thought; it cannot stand on its own.

What do you think?

Thanks!
I think the semicolon is acceptable. It joins two closely-related sentences.
The business about a sentence containing a "complete thought" has never been proven by psychoneurolinguists, cognitive scientists or anyone else; it's a conventional definition that is very hard to apply. What's a complete thought?

"I think the semicolon is acceptable." is obviously a sentence, but it is not a complete thought because I must have in mind which semicolon I'm thinking about - and that occurred in your post.
 

apex2000

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Semicolon or colon, because you need a longer pause than a comma plus the fact that although related the two parts are separate.
Alternatively you could say: '......in this county, yet today there are 125'.
 

Allen165

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I think the semicolon is acceptable. It joins two closely-related sentences.
The business about a sentence containing a "complete thought" has never been proven by psychoneurolinguists, cognitive scientists or anyone else; it's a conventional definition that is very hard to apply. What's a complete thought?

"I think the semicolon is acceptable." is obviously a sentence, but it is not a complete thought because I must have in mind which semicolon I'm thinking about - and that occurred in your post.

Would you say that the semicolon in the following sentence is correct as well?

"Only simple advice can be given as regards unexpected ideas; namely, that you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear."

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Raymott

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Would you say that the semicolon in the following sentence is correct as well?

"Only simple advice can be given as regards unexpected ideas; namely, that you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear."

Thanks!
I wouldn't use it; I'd use a dash. There are areas where "correctness" becomes a nebulous concept, and I wouldn't argue one way or the other about this example.
 

apex2000

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Would you say that the semicolon in the following sentence is correct as well?

"Only simple advice can be given as regards unexpected ideas; namely, that you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear."

Thanks!
Personally I would use the colon, but semicolon would be a second choice.
 

Allen165

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Personally I would use the colon, but semicolon would be a second choice.

If you were to use the colon, you'd probably have to get rid of "namely."
 

bhaisahab

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Allen165

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Because a colon tells the reader that what follows it explains what precedes it. "Namely" performs the same function, so it would be redundant to write "namely."
 

bhaisahab

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Because a colon tells the reader that what follows it explains what precedes it. "Namely" performs the same function, so it would be redundant to write "namely."
Exactly.
 

apex2000

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Because a colon tells the reader that what follows it explains what precedes it. "Namely" performs the same function, so it would be redundant to write "namely."
Now I would agree if the colon came with a dash :-
 

Allen165

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The reason I have a problem with the semicolon is the word "that."

"Only simple advice can be given as regards unexpected ideas; namely, that you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear."

Although it has a subject and verb, the clause "that you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear" cannot stand on its own. But I guess it doesn't have to to qualify as an independent clause.
 

apex2000

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If 'that' is left out, as it frequently is, it is implied.
 

Allen165

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Raymott commented that it is difficult to define a "complete thought." He is right, but I nonetheless think the "complete thought" criterion is an essential part of an independent clause and can help one determine whether a clause is independent.

Please consider the following six examples. The first three are from a law textbook authored by two Britons, the fourth one is from the European Court of Justice, and the last two from me. I have commented each of them and would appreciate some feedback.

1. "The correct legislative procedure in respect of a proposed piece of legislation is determined by the legal base of the proposed legislation, that is to say the Treaty Article which gives the Community power to act in that area."

I think the comma is correct. Sure, the clause starting with "that is to say" has a subject and verb, but something seems to be lacking. I cannot, however, express this in grammatical terms.

2. "Article 3 does not however provide that the measures within its scope contravene Article 28 only 'where the restrictive effect of such measures on the free movement of goods exceeds the effects intrinsic to trade rules,' that is 'where the restrictive effects on the free movement of goods are out of proportion to their purpose' or where 'the same objective can be attained by other means which are less of a hindrance to trade.'"

This one I'm not as confident about, perhaps because the "that is" clause is so long. But if you were to isolate the clause from the rest of the sentence, I think you'd come to the conclusion that it can't stand on its own because of "where," which functions as a dependent word in the sentence. Or at least I believe it does.

3. "Member States must be able to establish not only that the measures in question are not protectionist but also that they are no more than is necessary to achieve the objective in view, in other words that they satisfy the principle of proportionality."

In this example the comma is probably wrong. "They satisfy the principle of proportionality" is an independent clause, one that isn't preceded by a dependent word (assuming that "that" isn't such a word).

4. "Individuals are therefore entitled to rely before national courts, against the State, on the provisions of a directive which appear, so far as their subject-matter is concerned, to be unconditional and sufficiently precise whenever the full application of the directive is not in fact secured, that is to say, not only where the directive has not been implemented or has been implemented incorrectly, but also where the national measures correctly implementing the directive are not being applied in such a way as to achieve the result sought by it."

What a monster of a sentence! Regrettably, such sentences often appear in the judgments of the European Court of Justice. Anyway, I think the comma after "secured" is correct because the clause that follows contains a dependent word.

5. "These developments have contributed to the 'juridification' of sport, that is to say, 'the process through which the general laws of the land penetrate the internal laws of sport.'”

I think the comma after "sport" is correct, but I can't really explain why, other than to say that the "that is to say" clause sounds incomplete.

6. "It appears more probable, though, that rules justified on non-economic grounds are, in fact, rules justified on grounds of purely sporting interest, given the parallel the Court drew between non-economic reasons and purely sporting interest in paragraph 14 of Donà, namely, that 'reasons which are not of an economic nature ... are thus of sporting interest only.'”

The comma after "Donà" is probably wrong. But I'm not sure.

I'm sorry for making such a long post. Feel free to remedy any grammatical offenses I may have perpetrated in it.

Thanks a lot!
 

Coolfootluke

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I don't understand why the semicolon in the sentence below is correct; I've been told that it is.

"In 1960 there were 5 lawyers in this county; today there are 125."

For the semicolon to be correct, "today there are 125" must be an independent clause, which is defined as a group of words that contains a subject and verb and expresses a complete thought (Purdue OWL: Independent and Dependent Clauses). I don't think the clause in question fulfills the last criterion. If you were to come up to someone and say, "Today there are 125," he/she would not understand you. He/she might reply, "Today there are 125 what?" Therefore, "today there are 125" does not express a complete thought; it cannot stand on its own.

What do you think?

Thanks!
I am not a teacher.

The semicolon is right. Purdue is quite right, too.

The second clause is an independent clause because the subject is tacit: today there are 125 [lawyers]. We often leave one element or another unsaid, and it is the easier to do that the more vital that element is. This case is similar to zeugma.

Another way to look at it is that 125 is the subject. One definition of every positive integer is "that many people": Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred. or They were seven---and they fought like seven hundred! or And then there was one.
 

Coolfootluke

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Raymott commented that it is difficult to define a "complete thought." He is right, but I nonetheless think the "complete thought" criterion is an essential part of an independent clause and can help one determine whether a clause is independent.

Please consider the following six examples. The first three are from a law textbook authored by two Britons, the fourth one is from the European Court of Justice, and the last two from me. I have commented each of them and would appreciate some feedback.

Don't expect legal writing to have good punctuation or conventional punctuation.

1. "The correct legislative procedure in respect of a proposed piece of legislation is determined by the legal base of the proposed legislation, that is to say the Treaty Article which gives the Community power to act in that area."

I think the comma is correct. Sure, the clause starting with "that is to say" has a subject and verb, but something seems to be lacking. I cannot, however, express this in grammatical terms.

"That is to say" is an adverb; I would put a comma after it. The comma after "legislation" is right because it introduces an appositive.

2. "Article 3 does not however provide that the measures within its scope contravene Article 28 only 'where the restrictive effect of such measures on the free movement of goods exceeds the effects intrinsic to trade rules,' that is 'where the restrictive effects on the free movement of goods are out of proportion to their purpose' or where 'the same objective can be attained by other means which are less of a hindrance to trade.'"

This one I'm not as confident about, perhaps because the "that is" clause is so long. But if you were to isolate the clause from the rest of the sentence, I think you'd come to the conclusion that it can't stand on its own because of "where," which functions as a dependent word in the sentence. Or at least I believe it does.

Same as example 1.

3. "Member States must be able to establish not only that the measures in question are not protectionist but also that they are no more than is necessary to achieve the objective in view, in other words that they satisfy the principle of proportionality."

In this example the comma is probably wrong. "They satisfy the principle of proportionality" is an independent clause, one that isn't preceded by a dependent word (assuming that "that" isn't such a word).

Again.

4. "Individuals are therefore entitled to rely before national courts, against the State, on the provisions of a directive which appear, so far as their subject-matter is concerned, to be unconditional and sufficiently precise whenever the full application of the directive is not in fact secured, that is to say, not only where the directive has not been implemented or has been implemented incorrectly, but also where the national measures correctly implementing the directive are not being applied in such a way as to achieve the result sought by it."

What a monster of a sentence! Regrettably, such sentences often appear in the judgments of the European Court of Justice. Anyway, I think the comma after "secured" is correct because the clause that follows contains a dependent word.

Appositive, again.

5. "These developments have contributed to the 'juridification' of sport, that is to say, 'the process through which the general laws of the land penetrate the internal laws of sport.'”

I think the comma after "sport" is correct, but I can't really explain why, other than to say that the "that is to say" clause sounds incomplete.

One more time.

6. "It appears more probable, though, that rules justified on non-economic grounds are, in fact, rules justified on grounds of purely sporting interest, given the parallel the Court drew between non-economic reasons and purely sporting interest in paragraph 14 of Donà, namely, that 'reasons which are not of an economic nature ... are thus of sporting interest only.'”

The comma after "Donà" is probably wrong. But I'm not sure.

And yet again.

I'm sorry for making such a long post. Feel free to remedy any grammatical offenses I may have perpetrated in it.

Thanks a lot!
 

Allen165

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In post #4 I provided the following sentence:

"Only simple advice can be given as regards unexpected ideas; namely, that you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear."

Everyone who commented on the sentence felt the semicolon was correct. If I've understood you correctly, the semicolon is wrong. Right?
 

Coolfootluke

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In post #4 I provided the following sentence:

"Only simple advice can be given as regards unexpected ideas; namely, that you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear."

Everyone who commented on the sentence felt the semicolon was correct. If I've understood you correctly, the semicolon is wrong. Right?
I am not a teacher.

Right---wrong.

Everything after "namely" is in apposition to "advice" and therefore takes a comma. The comma after "namely" is conventional and mandatory---it is like the one after "for example". I can't make a semicolon work in that sentence without major surgery. A colon could be easily accommodated: Only simple advice can be given as regards unexpected ideas: you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear.
 

Allen165

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Right---wrong.

Everything after "namely" is in apposition to "advice" and therefore takes a comma. The comma after "namely" is conventional and mandatory---it is like the one after "for example". I can't make a semicolon work in that sentence without major surgery. A colon could be easily accommodated: Only simple advice can be given as regards unexpected ideas: you should be ready for them and fasten them to the memory when they appear.

I hope the others will tell us why they think the semicolon is correct.

If I've understood you correctly, "namely" and "that is" can never be preceded by a semicolon. I don't mean to disrespect you, but I doubt that's the case.

I don't think "namely" and "for example" have to always be followed by a comma.

Would you put a comma after "for example" in this sentence?

The work of other DGs also touches on sport, for example that of DG Competition, which investigates breaches of EC competition law.
 
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