Coming to Lam's party, we had bought some flowers.

[Son Ho]

Could I change sentence 1 to sentence 3? I wonder if we could use a gerund to replace a clause without before.

1. Before we came to Lam's party, we had bought some flowers.
2. Before coming to Lam's party, we had bought some flowers.
3. Coming to Lam's party, we had bought some flowers.

 

[Tarheel]

Perhaps:

Before we went to Lam's party we bought some flowers.

Or:

We bought some flowers before we went to Lam's party.

 

[Phaedrus]

Could I change sentence 1 to sentence 3? [. . .]

1. Before we came to Lam's party, we had bought some flowers.
2. Before coming to Lam's party, we had bought some flowers.
3. Coming to Lam's party, we had bought some flowers.

Sentence (3) means that you had bought some flowers as you came, not before you came.

 

[emsr2d2]

If you bought them during the journey from your house to the party venue, say "On the way to Lam's party, we bought some flowers".

 

[jutfrank]

Sentence 1 is wrong to start with.

If you mean that you are at Lam's party when you speak, then Lam's party is not right. Depending on exactly what you mean, you could say: We bought some flowers before we got here.

If you mean that Lam's party is a past event, then came is wrong. Depending on exactly what you mean, you could say: We bought some flowers before going to Lam's party.

Please tell us exactly what you mean, including who is speaking, and why the speaker is saying it. It will also help if you tell us why you used the past perfect.

 

[Phaedrus]

I find (1) OK. My assumption is that the coming to the party in (1) is in the past (came) and that the speaker is narrating from the perspective of Lam's party.

 

[Son Ho]

Sentence 1 is wrong to start with.

If you mean that you are at Lam's party when you speak, then Lam's party is not right. Depending on exactly what you mean, you could say: We bought some flowers before we got here.

I mean that I am at Lam's party when I speak to a friend. I think now I must correct it. But if sentence 1 is in writing, I can use the past perfect as an alternative to the past simple to show that the action in the first sentence happens first. In sentence 2, I would like to reduce it without before. Could I do that?

1. We had bought some flowers before we got here.
2. Getting here, we had bought some flowers.

 

[Son Ho]

Sentence (3) means that you had bought some flowers as you came, not before you came.

I don't really understand it.

 

[jutfrank]

I mean that I am at Lam's party when I speak to a friend. I think now I must correct it.

Yes, as I said, if you are at Lam's party when you speak, you obviously would not refer to it as 'Lam's party'. You should use here instead.

But if sentence 1 is in writing, I can use the past perfect as an alternative to the past simple to show that the action in the first sentence happens first.

No, you can't. Depending on the context, you could say Before we got here, we bought some flowers or We bought some flowers before we got here.

In sentence 2, I would like to reduce it without before. Could I do that?

1. We had bought some flowers before we got here.
2. Getting here, we had bought some flowers.

No, that's not right. Firstly, past perfect is not correct. Secondly, don't try to reduce it at all.

If your aim is to practice reducing sentences with participle phrases, it is important that you:

1) Start off with natural sentences. Do not make up your own.
2) First learn why we reduce sentences in that way. You shouldn't try to do it with just any sentence.

 

[Phaedrus]

I don't really understand it.

If you don't understand "as," do you understand "while"?

 

[Son Ho]

No, you can't. Depending on the context, you could say Before we got here, we bought some flowers or We bought some flowers before we got here.

I don't really understand why we can't use the past perfect in this sentence. After I have read some grammar books, I just know that we don't have to use the past perfect instead of the simple past if it's not necessary to emphasize that the first action finishes before the second one happens. That's all. I can't tell the two following sentences apart because they are the same to me. Could you please help me with this?

1. Before we got here, we bought some flowers.
2. Before we got here, we had bought some flowers.

 

[Son Ho]

If you don't understand "as," do you understand "while"?

Yes, I do. You mean that we bought some flowers on their way to the party. But "came" here is an action that begins and ends in a very short time. I mean the moment we opened the door to come in. So "bought some flowers" happens first and "came" goes after that.

 

[5jj]

But "came" here is an action that begins and ends in a very short time.

Not necessarily.

I mean the moment we opened the door to come in.

The you need 'arrive at' rather than 'come'. And, using 'before' you don't need a past perfect to establish the sequence of events.

 

[Tdol]

How do you use come and go in Vietnamese? Your first sentences sound like some Asian languages that use the verbs in different ways from English.

 

[Phaedrus]

Yes, I do. You mean that we bought some flowers on their way to the party. But "came" here is an action that begins and ends in a very short time. I mean the moment we opened the door to come in. So "bought some flowers" happens first and "came" goes after that.

No, Son. "Coming to Lam's party" in "Coming to Lam's party, we had bought some flowers" refers to the journey to Lam's party, not to the moment of entry.

 

[Son Ho]

How do you use come and go in Vietnamese? Your first sentences sound like some Asian languages that use the verbs in different ways from English.

Actually, the way to understand how to use words in English is hard for me, a Vietnamese. There are some differences in meaning of the same word. If I want to tell you that I will come over to your place. Could I use "come over" in this situation? I can use "come over" in Vietnamese. I mean "come" or "go" is the same in Vietnamese.

 

[jutfrank]

If I want to tell you that I will come over to your place. Could I use "come over" in this situation?

Yes.

I can use "come over" in Vietnamese.

No, you can't because 'come over' is an English word, not a Vietnamese one! You're making a very bad mistake here, which is to think that you can translate the meaning and use of individual English words into Vietnamese ones.

I mean "come" or "go" is the same in Vietnamese.

No, it isn't.

When you're translating, you need to think about the whole meaning. If you have a sentence in English, you can translate the meaning of the sentence in its context into Vietnamese. You shouldn't try to translate each word of the sentence.

 

[Tdol]

Actually, the way to understand how to use words in English is hard for me, a Vietnamese. There are some differences in meaning of the same word. If I want to tell you that I will come over to your place. Could I use "come over" in this situation? I can use "come over" in Vietnamese. I mean "come" or "go" is the same in Vietnamese.

We would be unlikely to use go there, and they aren't the same in Englidh, and their usage in English is not the same as some Asian languages, which further complicates things.