Correcting bad habits

[Lorrgood]

I am a fairly experienced teacher, but am struggling with one aspect: I have a couple of Polish students who have been resident in the UK for several years. They have developed good vocabulary and fluency, but also some habits that interfere with grammatical accuracy and correct pronunciation. They've come to me to improve these aspects. The problem is this: I prepare lessons that target their errors; they perform really well in lessons, achieving the aim each time. I give lots of opportunity to practise during lessons. But.....as soon as the lesson ends and they are just chatting to me, they drop straight back into their habitual mistakes!! I really don't know how to take them forward. Does anybody have any suggestions for how to break bad habits? (The learners do recognise they make habitual mistakes).

 

[teechar]

As the saying goes: old habits die hard!
The best remedy is practice and lots of it. Humans are not computers, so it takes time to re-establish a concept/pattern in our brains. Encourage your students to persist with practice and not to be dissuaded by initial relapses.

 

[Lorrgood]

As the saying goes: old habits die hard!
The best remedy is practice and lots of it. Humans are not computers, so it takes time to re-establish a concept/pattern in our brains. Encourage your students to persist with practice and not to be dissuaded by initial relapses.

Yep, lots of practice is the answer. Unfortunately, they get a bit bored covering the same ground (albeit using varying media) every lesson. They don't seem to realised they also have to apply new learning to create new habits! Onward and upward!

 

[jutfrank]

It sounds like their mistakes may have fossilised, and the older they are, the longer it's going to take them to undo this. With the pronunciation errors specifically , it's possible they might never learn, depending on what kind of error it is.

It's hard to give any specific advice when we don't have any data, but generally speaking, I'd say you have to manage your expectations and work out where you can help most effectively.

How old are they?
How long have they been in the UK?
Would you say they're both clearly advanced?
Can you give a few examples of their errors?

 

[Lorrgood]

It sounds like their mistakes may have fossilised, and the older they are, the longer it's going to take them to undo this. With the pronunciation errors specifically , it's possible they might never learn, depending on what kind of error it is.

It's hard to give any specific advice when we don't have any data, but generally speaking, I'd say you have to manage your expectations and work out where you can help most effectively.

How old are they?
How long have they been in the UK?
Would you say they're both clearly advanced?
Can you give a few examples of their errors?

Hi - many thanks for replying. To answer your questions: one student (aged 30) has been in the UK 10 years. Her knowledge of English is good but it requires concentration to understand her speech. She speaks very fast, has not mastered stress and intonation, rolls all her Rs, pronounces 'th' as 'f' and has a habit of putting 'the' before every noun (e.g I am going to the Bristol). I have done countless lessons on word & sentence stress, rhythm, linking, use of schwa etc. We've practiced 'th' (mirror, finger on lower lip to prevent contact with upper teeth!) but she finds it really difficult). She's fine in practice exercises, but we're back to square one in the oral warm-up at the start of each lesson! I'm beginning to think that I can't help her.
Any suggestions would be welcome - thanks.

 

[teechar]

How long has she been your student?

 

[jutfrank]

one student (aged 30) has been in the UK 10 years. Her knowledge of English is good but it requires concentration to understand her speech. She speaks very fast, has not mastered stress and intonation, rolls all her Rs, pronounces 'th' as 'f' and has a habit of putting 'the' before every noun (e.g I am going to the Bristol). I have done countless lessons on word & sentence stress, rhythm, linking, use of schwa etc. We've practiced 'th' (mirror, finger on lower lip to prevent contact with upper teeth!) but she finds it really difficult). She's fine in practice exercises, but we're back to square one in the oral warm-up at the start of each lesson! I'm beginning to think that I can't help her.

I see. Yes, that sounds extremely challenging, perhaps impossible. What exactly is she paying you for? What does she think you can do to help her? Is she asking you to fix anything in particular?

One possible way to approach a seemingly impenetrable case like this: It sounds like you might need to get 'inside her self' and work your way out. To start with, I'd help her find a model. That could be an actress from a TV programme, or a YouTuber, or a podcast presenter, or something like that. It must be a woman, of a similar age, who speaks very good English— someone whose voice your student would find it possible to mimic and whom you want your student to sound like. Then find lots of material by this model which she can simply imitate over and over again (you feed back and drill any inaccuracies), until she learns to be able to adopt this new 'character', without a script, as a kind of alter ego. Then I'd demand that your student stay in character whenever she's with you. Think of it as an actor learning to play a role.

This is essentially the old audiolingual method, which is extremely effective for certain particular outcomes. Let me know if this is a method you'd feel comfortable using. Again, it's hard to make suggestions without knowing a lot more about the student.

 

[Lorrgood]

I see. Yes, that sounds extremely challenging, perhaps impossible. What exactly is she paying you for? What does she think you can do to help her? Is she asking you to fix anything in particular?

One possible way to approach a seemingly impenetrable case like this: It sounds like you might need to get 'inside her self' and work your way out. To start with, I'd help her find a model. That could be an actress from a TV programme, or a YouTuber, or a podcast presenter, or something like that. It must be a woman, of a similar age, who speaks very good English— someone whose voice your student would find it possible to mimic and whom you want your student to sound like. Then find lots of material by this model which she can simply imitate over and over again (you feed back and drill any inaccuracies), until she learns to be able to adopt this new 'character', without a script, as a kind of alter ego. Then I'd demand that your student stay in character whenever she's with you. Think of it as an actor learning to play a role.

This is essentially the old audiolingual method, which is extremely effective for certain particular outcomes. Let me know if this is a method you'd feel comfortable using. Again, it's hard to make suggestions without knowing a lot more about the student.

Thank you for that really thoughtful suggestion. I think it may be my last ditch effort! If that doesn't work, I think I'll have to give up....she really needs to put in the work to break old habits. Appreciate your input - thank you.

 

[emsr2d2]

Thank you for that really thoughtful suggestion. I think it may be my last ditch effort! If that doesn't work, I think I'll have to give up....she really needs to put in the work to break old habits. Appreciate your input - thank you.

Is she coming to you voluntarily for classes? If she's not prepared to put in the work, I might be inclined to think that it's someone else's suggestion that she improve her English.

 

[Lorrgood]

How long has she been your student?

Almost a year. I'm now feeling guilty for taking her money!

 

[Lorrgood]

Is she coming to you voluntarily for classes? If she's not prepared to put in the work, I might be inclined to think that it's someone else's suggestion that she improve her English.

Yes, she asked another student if I had availability to take her on. I helped her with the written element of a L3 Leadership & Management qualification and coached her for her oral presentation. She passed - with distinction! Since then she's wanted to improve her general English, particularly her speaking and comes for weekly lessons. I'm beginning to feel guilty for taking her money!

 

[emsr2d2]

Have you asked her how she thinks it's going? You might find that she has a completely different view of it from you.

The fact that she passed with distinction means she must be able to speak more slowly and clearly when she needs to. I don't know your teaching style so I can only tell you what I did with one of my previous students who really struggled with speaking (not so much pronunciation but with speed - she was Spanish, after all!) For two or three lessons, I insisted that she speak at about a third her normal speed, enunciating each and every letter and syllable to an almost ridiculous extent. I didn't leap in to correct all her pronunciation errors. I concentrated on grammar. Every time she sped up, I simply put one hand out in front of me and said "Slower!" I basically wanted her to really hear how she spoke and she couldn't do that at the rate she usually spoke. She admitted that she assumed that the faster she spoke, the less audible her errors would be. I agreed that that was true but also pointed out that it meant that she wasn't achieving the single most important aim of language - communication.

 

[jutfrank]

I insisted that she speak at about a third her normal speed, enunciating each and every letter and syllable to an almost ridiculous extent. I didn't leap in to correct all her pronunciation errors. I concentrated on grammar. Every time she sped up, I simply put one hand out in front of me and said "Slower!"

I like it.

 

[Lorrgood]

Have you asked her how she thinks it's going? You might find that she has a completely different view of it from you.

The fact that she passed with distinction means she must be able to speak more slowly and clearly when she needs to. I don't know your teaching style so I can only tell you what I did with one of my previous students who really struggled with speaking (not so much pronunciation but with speed - she was Spanish, after all!) For two or three lessons, I insisted that she speak at about a third her normal speed, enunciating each and every letter and syllable to an almost ridiculous extent. I didn't leap in to correct all her pronunciation errors. I concentrated on grammar. Every time she sped up, I simply put one hand out in front of me and said "Slower!" I basically wanted her to really hear how she spoke and she couldn't do that at the rate she usually spoke. She admitted that she assumed that the faster she spoke, the less audible her errors would be. I agreed that that was true but also pointed out that it meant that she wasn't achieving the single most important aim of language - communication.

Thanks for this - I'll certainly give your suggestion a try. I think she acknowledges that her habits (and speaking speed) interfere with communication, as she says that people at work sometimes find it hard to understand her. That's why she's taking lessons. Reading your reply makes me realize that the single thing that would help her communication would be to slow down. It's the monotone machine-gun delivery, rather than the individual pronunciation errors, that makes her difficult to follow.
Thanks again for the suggestion. Seeing her on Friday...wish me luck!

 

[emsr2d2]

I wonder if your student spends a lot of her time with other Polish people (but speaking English). It's entirely possible that they understand each other perfectly well. English learners have an incredible ability to understand other English learners!

I'd also be interested to know if she has a monotone style when speaking Polish too. If so, it might be quite hard to get her to liven up her speech patterns. I've seen a strange method work, albeit with French. When I took A Level French, there was one lad, Alex, in our very small class who spoke French in the most English accent you've ever heard! He had no French accent at all. His O Level teacher hadn't tried to do anything about it but the college teacher decided he wasn't going to put up with it. He asked Alex to speak English as if he was very rudely mocking a French person - the shrugs, the hand gestures, a loud voice and a ridiculously overdone French accent. Could he do it? Oh yes, indeed he could. It was hilarious to watch. So, having spoken English with that accent, the teacher got him to do the same vocal tricks but while speaking French. It wasn't perfect but it was a lot better than it had been. I realise that doesn't really help with your student as far as pronunciation goes, but jutfrank's suggestion earlier of finding her someone to model is a great one, particularly if that person speaks in a good, "musical" tone (anything but a monotone).

Good luck for Friday!

 

[Lorrgood]

I wonder if your student spends a lot of her time with other Polish people (but speaking English). It's entirely possible that they understand each other perfectly well. English learners have an incredible ability to understand other English learners!

I'd also be interested to know if she has a monotone style when speaking Polish too. If so, it might be quite hard to get her to liven up her speech patterns. I've seen a strange method work, albeit with French. When I took A Level French, there was one lad, Alex, in our very small class who spoke French in the most English accent you've ever heard! He had no French accent at all. His O Level teacher hadn't tried to do anything about it but the college teacher decided he wasn't going to put up with it. He asked Alex to speak English as if he was very rudely mocking a French person - the shrugs, the hand gestures, a loud voice and a ridiculously overdone French accent. Could he do it? Oh yes, indeed he could. It was hilarious to watch. So, having spoken English with that accent, the teacher got him to do the same vocal tricks but while speaking French. It wasn't perfect but it was a lot better than it had been. I realise that doesn't really help with your student as far as pronunciation goes, but jutfrank's suggestion earlier of finding her someone to model is a great one, particularly if that person speaks in a good, "musical" tone (anything but a monotone).

Good luck for Friday!

That's another great suggestion.....and could be good fun too! My experience of Polish speakers is that they generally modulate their voices a little less than we do, so can sound a bit monotone to us. One of my students said she thought native English speakers sounded a bit like chickens (she possibly meant me, since I do occasionally emit the odd squawk!). The student in question works in a factory with several other Polish folk, so you may be right about her spending a lot of time talking with other Polish people.

I am really grateful to everybody who has contributed here - thank you. I have some new things to try before I throw in the towel and admit defeat!

 

[emsr2d2]

The student in question works in a factory with several other Polish folk, so you may be right about her spending a lot of time talking with other Polish people.

Aha! That definitely might be part of the problem. If she spent more time talking to native speakers, she'd probably pick up the rhythm etc of the language better. Is there a language exchange, or just English practice, evening locally you could encourage her to go to?

 

[Lorrgood]

Nice idea....but not much going on in rural Wiltshire ....! (And don't get me started on another Polish student, who is solitary all day (a lorry driver) and comes home to Polish fiancee. They've been in the UK for 5 years, but have almost no contact with native speakers. I've looked at Meetup groups, but again, there's nothing local.)