[Grammar] why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

[Aamir Tariq]

When we started learning English at school. We were told that we should always use "shall' with "I" and "we" pronouns. Since we followed British English norms and British spellings back at school.

But now I hardly see anyone using "shall" with "I" and "we" not only Americans but also British.

I have heard "shall" only on occasions when people offer other people something, or when they suggest others to do something.

Like a boyfriend might ask his girlfriend to dance.
Let's dance, shall we?

Shall is no longer used in this way.

I shall go to New York next week.
We shall go on a picnic to Florida.

Regards
Aamir the Global Citizen

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

Like a boyfriend might ask [STRIKE]her[/STRIKE] his girlfriend to dance.

That's the second time in a couple of hours I've had to correct the same error. Did you not spot my correction the last time? The possessive pronoun for a male subject is "his". It's "her" for a female subject.

 

[SoothingDave]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

Because language constantly changes. "Whom" is another word that is not used much, or at all, by most native speakers. Like "shall" its use is fixed in certain phrases, but not used commonly in other places where it used to be.

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

Unlike Piscean, I was never taught this [artificial] difference. I simply use "shall" in the same way it was used by everyone around me when I was acquiring my own language.

Shall we go out for dinner?
Shall I make a cup of tea?

Are you going to go out for dinner?
Will they buy the tickets tomorrow?
Are they going to buy the tickets tomorrow?

I will book my ticket next week.
He will not win the prize.
We will wait until the film has been out a while before we see it.

 

[SoothingDave]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

I remember a teacher once trying to make the distinction between "you will" and "you shall." I don't think any of us kids were buying it.

You do find "shalls" in legal language to express an obligation. "The sheriff shall issue a permit" is stricter than "the sheriff may issue a permit." In the latter, the sheriff has discretion that he does not in the former.

 

[kilroy65]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

Perhaps the most stable use of "shall" nowadays is in tag questions, when we start the sentence with "Let's": Let's go to the cinema tonight, shall we?

 

[Aamir Tariq]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

That's the second time in a couple of hours I've had to correct the same error. Did you not spot my correction the last time? The possessive pronoun for a male subject is "his". It's "her" for a female subject.

I know all those rules. In fact, I don't get enough sleep because I have to work online for hours and hours and most of the time when I am posting my questions I am feeling so drowsy that I make those errors unknowingly. Thanks for pointing them out anyway.

 

[Aamir Tariq]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

There is one more thing we were taught at school about this "shall" and "will" thing.

Not only we were taught to use "shall" with "I" and "you" and "will" with "you", "he", "she", "it", "they" "third person singular and plural nouns" when we talk about future but also to reverse the rule if you want to stress something and you want to say that something will certainly happen or be done. like

when you say

I shall go to London tomorrow. (it means, I'll simply go to London tomorrow)
I will go to London tomorrow. (it means, I will most certainly go to London, no matter whatever happens but I will go to London)

They will sign the documents. (they will simply sign the documents)
They shall sign the documents. (they will most certainly sign the documents, this is sure to happen)

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

I make no such distinction between the levels of certainty. For me, they mean exactly the same thing. Bear in mind that I would say neither. If my plan is to go to London tomorrow, then I would say "I'm going to London tomorrow". Note that I wouldn't even say "I'm going to go to London tomorrow". We use the future "tense" (will/shall/going to) much less frequently than textbooks suggest.

This dialogue is natural:

What are you doing tomorrow?
I'm going to London. You?
I'm taking my nephew to the cinema.

This dialogue is unnatural:

What will you do tomorrow?
I shall go to London. What will you do?
I shall take my nephew to the cinema.

 

[GoesStation]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

There is one more thing we were taught at school about this "shall" and "will" thing.

[STRIKE]Not only we[/STRIKE] We were taught to use "shall" with "I" and "you" and "will" with "you", "he", "she", "it", "they" "third person singular and plural nouns" when we talk about future, but also to reverse the rule if you want to stress something and you want to say that something will certainly happen or be done. like....

Note my correction above. The rule about shall and will was invented by a self-appointed grammarian in the nineteenth century and enthusiastically adopted by following generations of English teachers. It became one of a whole armament of grammatical shibboleths available to snobs who wanted to sneer at others for supposedly careless use of the language.

Queen Elizabeth may well make the distinction, but very few of her subjects do.

 

[Barb_D]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

The only way I can remember the difference is:
I will drown, and no one shall rescue me! - This is a declaration of suicide.
I shall drown, and no one will rescue me! - This is an expression of fear.

If I ever write a novel set in England 100 years ago, I may have to employ this mnemonic.

I can almost always tell that a draft was written by an Indian colleague when I see "shall" in it.

 

[GoesStation]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

It goes back at least to John Wallis in his Grammatica Linguae Anglicanae (1653) .

According to The Language Wars, the distinction was observed by Wallis and a couple of others as early as the seventeenth century but was only adopted (at least by teachers and snobs) after Lindley Murray promoted it in his English Grammar, first published in the late eighteenth century.

 

[Aamir Tariq]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

I think they need to update their curriculum at schools. I don't know why they are sticking to the same rules the British left here back in 1947 when we declared independence, the rules have changed in Britain itself ever since. But we are using the same old things here in Pakistan that have become obsolete even in British English.

 

[Rover_KE]

Re: why is "shall" no longer used with "I", "we" pronouns?

'Shall' is alive and well in BE.