Redder.. or more red?

[RonBee]

"a redder" - Google Search
Results 1 - 10 of about 52,700 for "a redder".


"a more red" - Google Search=
Results 1 - 10 of about 5,700 for "a more red".



Hm.

 

[PROESL]

PROESL, your explanations are delightfully convincing (though they sometimes shake the 'castle of certitudes' I have patiently built over the years as a diligent rule-abiding teacher...)
Just kidding, thank you so much for your contributions.

Castles were meant to be shaken. It's a test of their strength.

;-)

 

[PROESL]

PROESL, your explanations are delightfully convincing (though they sometimes shake the 'castle of certitudes' I have patiently built over the years as a diligent rule-abiding teacher...)
Just kidding, thank you so much for your contributions.

This article has to do with a book on methodology of some sort, but I think this excerpt is relevant to the "bigger picture" of which this discussion is a part. I've read articles by Scott Thornbury at One Stop English, and I have one of his books. He's an impressive person and has practical ideas about teaching English.


Natural Grammar, by Scott Thornbury

There are quite a lot of differences among EFL teachers regarding how best to teach grammar. Some teachers would probably follow the traditional idea of a prescriptive grammar, presenting rules and structures of language that define so-called good and bad usage. Natural Grammar, however, struck me as something entirely new in the EFL repertoire, as it is designed to make students and teachers think about new ways to analyse grammatical structure according to a functional approach. This is achieved by focusing on the actual patterns of use of normal speech, in which grammar emerges from the lexis of words, rather than being broken into little pieces that are defined by terminology.

I think this is another relevant excerpt.

I think that the advantage of this book is that it deals with a lot of common grammar constructions, which are often omitted by prescriptive grammar books that tend to tell people how to talk (production), rather than studying the way they talk (process). Another interesting aspect is that colloquial forms of language, such as the combination “get + to-infinitive” to talk about achieving something in “did you get to see the ruins” and “it gets me” to indicate annoyance, which are sometimes ignored by established EFL materials, are well covered in this book.

 

[bhaisahab]

I don't feel that tests have the most relevance anyway. Tests are not important. QuoteROESL

You may not like tests, I may not like tests, but students have to take tests and exams and it is incumbent apon teachers to help students to pass those tests and exams.

If you are saying that "more red" is acceptable as the comparative for "red", what do you propose for the superlative, "the most red"?

Lexically "fun" is not an adjective, it may be attributive as orangutang has pointed out, as with "a fun time", but it is obvious why it does not follow the usual rules for adjectives.

The standard of English teaching at primary and high school levels in recent years, has led to remedial English classes being necessary in universities.(for native speakers);-)

 

[bhaisahab]

"a redder" - Google Search
Results 1 - 10 of about 52,700 for "a redder".


"a more red" - Google Search=
Results 1 - 10 of about 5,700 for "a more red".



Hm.

All that seems to confirm is that there are people out there (about one tenth from the figures) who speak bad English, I don't find that at all surprising.

 

[bhaisahab]

I don't believe that "Did you have a fun time" is strictly American English.

I've never said it was.

UK Google

"a fun time" - Google Search

Australia Google

"a fun time" - Google Search=

South Africa Google

"a fun time" - Google Search=

Canada Google

"a fun time" - Google Search=

New Zealand Google

"a fun time" - Google Search=

Belize Google

"a fun time" - Google Search

Ok "a fun time" is not strictly AmE and it is acceptable, I dare say that it originated in AmE though. All of this is beside the point really, "fun" is still not a regular adjective it is a noun, which, according to some dictionaries, is sometimes used informally as an adjective.

 

[PROESL]

I don't feel that tests have the most relevance anyway. Tests are not important. QuoteROESL

You may not like tests, I may not like tests, but students have to take tests and exams and it is incumbent apon teachers to help students to pass those tests and exams.

If you are saying that "more red" is acceptable as the comparative for "red", what do you propose for the superlative, "the most red"?

Lexically "fun" is not an adjective, it may be attributive as orangutang has pointed out, as with "a fun time", but it is obvious why it does not follow the usual rules for adjectives.

The standard of English teaching at primary and high school levels in recent years, has led to remedial English classes being necessary in universities.(for native speakers);-)

I did not say that I do not like tests. I said they're not important. I don't think they are relevant in ESL. Each ELL and each ELT speaks from their own world of experience, and it should not be for any one or two or three ELTs to think that other ELTs should limit their commentary in order to conform to other ELTs' experience. I teach English. I don't teach people how to pass exams. So while in the world of some ESL-EFL teachers exams are important, they're not in important, or even relevant at all, in the world of many other ESL-EFL teachers. Native speakers of English use "fun" to modify any number of others nouns in addition to "time".

fun place, fun person, fun weekend, fun day at the park, etcetera

Fun is an adjective, lexically and otherwise. Millions of native speakers of English use "fun" to describe things every day. Fun is a predicate adjective, and it's an attributive adjective. I've already shown and proven this in previous posts.

I didn't say "more red" was acceptable. I merely made an observation of how native speaker deviate from the comparative rule from time to time and offered an explanation to this observation. And by the way, I'm not the only poster who made that observation.

What would you say if a student said to you, "Why do so many native speakers of English say things like "more red"? Would you say "I don't know, but it's wrong"? Would you say that all of them have poor skills in their native language, English?
________________________________________

The standard of English teaching at primary and high school levels in recent years, has led to remedial English classes being necessary in universities.

Yes, I'm aware that some native speakers of English have poor writing skills.

it is incumbent upon teachers to help students to pass those tests and exams.

This is a very subjective statement.

In the world of some ESL-EFL teachers this statement may be true, but it not so at all in the world of many other ESL-EFL teachers.

 

[PROESL]

Ok "a fun time" is not strictly AmE and it is acceptable, I dare say that it originated in AmE though. All of this is beside the point really, "fun" is still not a regular adjective it is a noun, which, according to some dictionaries, is sometimes used informally as an adjective.

No, it's not besides the point. You said "fun" is not adjective. This is one of the points. I used "fun" to demonstrate how rules can sometimes seem to be arbitrary, as we say "more fun", and we do not say "funner".

According to many dictionaries "fun" used as an adjective is common and accepted in every day usage by native speakers of English. Ask most any native speaker (people not involved in ESL or langauge in any way) and they'll tell you that "fun" is an adjective. The word "fun" functions and acts like an adjective in our every day language in every way possible.

Learning a foreign language can be fun.

 

[PROESL]

All that seems to confirm is that there are people out there (about one tenth from the figures) who speak bad English, I don't find that at all surprising.

It confirms that some people deviate from the comparative rule from time to time, and this does not mean that they speak bad English.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22a+more+blue%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Results 1 - 10 of about 501,000 for "a moreblue".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="a+bluer"&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g1

Results 1 - 10 of about 41,200 for "a bluer"

I don't believe that in the matter of comparative adjectives we should be passing judgement on other people's English language skills.

Another word in which comparative rules seem to be artbitrary is "common", and another one is "polite".

 

[PROESL]

Ok "a fun time" is not strictly AmE and it is acceptable, I dare say that it originated in AmE though.

What would prompt one to think or surmise that the phrase "a fun time", or "fun used as an adjective, originated in American English? I have no problem with the idea or the supposition, but I would ask what there is to support it.

 

[bhaisahab]

I ain't gonna contribute to this thread no more, I'm gonna grab a couple beers go bowlin with the guys an have myself a fun time.(I'm gonna wear my most red shirt too!);-)

 

[wace]

I didn't think my post would cause such an uproar!!!!!!

 

[PROESL]

I didn't think my post would cause such an uproar!!!!!!

Lion Tiger

Roar Roar


This is a red hot thread. ;-)

nfire: :evil: :multi: :twisted: :roll: