[Grammar] if + future

[licinio]

I read this sentence

If you will be visiting an area of Senegal with malaria, you will need to discuss with your doctor the best ways for you to avoid getting sick with malaria.

and found it strange, because you have an if-clause with a future, which is usually not allowed by grammar, unless will/shall carry a modal meaning. How can I explain this occurrence?

 

[billmcd]

I read this sentence

If you will be visiting an area of Senegal with malaria, you will need to discuss with your doctor the best ways for you to avoid getting sick with malaria.

and found it strange, because you have an if-clause with a future, which is usually not allowed by grammar, unless will/shall carry a modal meaning. How can I explain this occurrence?

Please quote the rule and source.

 

[apex2000]

The sentence is unhelpful because it is wrong. What the writer meant to say IMO is:
If you will be visiting Senegal it is an area where malaria is prevalent. You will need to discuss with your doctor before you come the best ways for you to avoid getting sick with malaria.
If they mean just an area of Senegal then I would still stick to my alteration because mosquitos do not recognise our boundaries and the traveller may make a mistake and go off in the wrong direction!:-D

 

[bhaisahab]

I read this sentence

If you will be visiting an area of Senegal with malaria, you will need to discuss with your doctor the best ways for you to avoid getting sick with malaria.

and found it strange, because you have an if-clause with a future, which is usually not allowed by grammar, unless will/shall carry a modal meaning. How can I explain this occurrence?

There is nothing wrong with "If you will be..."

 

[billmcd]

There is nothing wrong with "If you will be..."

Yes. I agree. That's why I asked for the rule & source of licinio's "usually not allowed etc."

 

[Raymott]

The sentence is unhelpful because it is wrong. What the writer meant to say IMO is:
If you will be visiting Senegal it is an area where malaria is prevalent.

I doubt it, since malaria is prevalent in Senegal regardless of whether the person will be visiting there.

You will need to discuss with your doctor before you come the best ways for you to avoid getting sick with malaria.
If they mean just an area of Senegal then I would still stick to my alteration because mosquitos do not recognise our boundaries and the traveller may make a mistake and go off in the wrong direction!:-D

R.

 

[vgv8]

The sentence is unhelpful

Can you give an example of helpful sentence with if +will?

I also was always taught that future cannot be in English if-clause to be hard remembered and as a common error by Russian-speaking "translators" since Russian language permits future in the if-clause.

Doesn't "if", at least, pre-suppose conditional or subjunctive tense (would)?

Update:
A fast search gave me
Common Errors in the Use of Tenses:

• 
  "Present tense and future tense
  
  Incorrect: I shall call you when the dinner will be ready.
  Correct: I shall call you when the dinner is ready.
  
  Incorrect: They will come if you will invite them.
  Correct: They will come if you invite them.
  
  When the verb in the main clause is in the future tense, the verb in the subordinate clause should be in the present and not in the future."

I do not want to waste much time on it, but I am quite sure that I shall find dozens of references telling that it is an error to have future in if-clause.

 

[lauralie2]

I read this sentence

If you will be visiting an area of Senegal with malaria, you will need to discuss with your doctor the best ways for you to avoid getting sick with malaria.

and found it strange, because you have an if-clause with a future, which is usually not allowed by grammar, unless will/shall carry a modal meaning. How can I explain this occurrence?

I have never heard "if you will be". It's new to me (Google has examples though, but that doesn't make the structure standard English.) Aren't 'if' and 'will' contrary? You'd expect the present tense (if you are going to visit). But...the abstract of the article (see link below) may prove otherwise.

Maybe the posters who find the construct acceptable will speak up on why they think it so.


_________________
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...65f459adc8456aef2478986e21bcb56b&searchtype=a

 

[Raymott]

I have never heard "if you will be". It's new to me (Google has examples though, but that doesn't make the structure standard English.) Aren't 'if' and 'will' contrary? You'd expect the present tense (if you are going to visit). But...the abstract of the article (see link below) may prove otherwise.

Maybe the posters who find the construct acceptable will speak up on why they think it so.


_________________
ScienceDirect - Lingua : ‘Pure future’ will in if-clauses

It's normal in AusE.

Your link to "If you will be invited for Anny's wedding, will you go?" is perhaps misleading, since it's not the same construct. It's passive. I agree that this sentence is odd.
"If you'll be going to Senegal ..." is active voice. It may not be as common as "If you are going to Senegal ...", but I can't see how it's wrong.

'If' and 'will' are not contrary. A does not know if B will go. There might be some contrariness about "If I will go to Senegal ..." which I'd call wrong.

Have you heard of, "Look, if you'll only listen to me, you might understand!"

 

[Raymott]

I do not want to waste much time on it, but I am quite sure that I shall find dozens of references telling that it is an error to have future in if-clause.

You might. But they will be in the context of the sentences you've given.
References to incorrect beginner's rules that don't give exceptions are a dime a dozen.

I think that the question, "Will you be going to Senegal on your trip overseas?" is incontestably correct. The speaker obviously does not know the answer, and hence he may say, "If you will be going to Senegal, ... "
In this context, the "will" involves volition. In your example of being invited to a party, "will" is simply an indicator of futurity.
So, there are circumstances in which "I will go the party if Mary will invite me" is correct.

 

[lauralie2]

Your link to "If you will be invited for Anny's wedding, will you go?" is perhaps misleading, since it's not the same construct. It's passive.

To clarify, the link was for the idea that 'if' and 'will' are 'contrary', not for the sentence you quoted. :lol:

'If' and 'will' are not contrary. A does not know if B will go. There might be some contrariness about "If I will go to Senegal ..." which I'd call wrong.

Which is what the article seems to argue as well.

I'd like to learn more about (non)volitional 'will'.

Is 'if...will' standard AuE?

In the spirit of exchanging example sentences, what about? If you will only marry me / if only you would marry me.

 

[Raymott]

To clarify, the link was for the idea that 'if' and 'will' are 'contrary', not for the sentence you quoted. :lol:
But it's the sentence I quoted that's in dispute. A reference that shows how 'if' and 'will' are contrary in another context seems beside the point to me. In any case, it seems that almost everyone agrees that there's no inherent problem with "If you will be ..."

Which is what the article seems to argue as well.
Do you mean your link to the other forum? Surely not. Unfortunately, the other link is to an article that I'm not willing to pay for to read. But you may email me a copy, if you will.

I'd like to learn more about (non)volitional 'will'.
Sure, see below.

Is 'if...will' standard AuE?
When it's used correctly.

In the spirit of exchanging example sentences, what about? If you will only marry me / if only you would marry me.
Both of those are good phrases.

By volitional and futurity, I mean that some instances of 'will' indicate only that something is going to happen in the future (futurity), whereas other imply volition.
You'd agree that there's not much volitional meaning in 'will' in "It will probably rain tomorrow". "It" has no desire to rain, no will to rain.

Consider, 1. "I will go to the party if Mary invites me." This is what students are taught is the only possible form. And it's correct in most cases. You don't want to say 2. "I will go to the party if Mary will invite me" unless there is some additional volitional aspect that you're trying to communicate.

Let's say that Mary and I have been arguing. I've done something bad. Mary says, "I will forgive you if you will apologise." It's a trade. "I will do A if you will do B." There's an element of volition here that is not present in many uses of 'will'.
If relations are still bad between us, I might say, "I will go to the party if Mary will ask me". I'm not sure if Mary wants me there. I'm not sure that she has the volition, the will, the willingness, to ask me. It is not just that I'm uncertain about the futurity of Mary's asking me. In this case, "if ... will" is correct and appropriate.

 

[vgv8]

References to incorrect beginner's rules that don't give exceptions are a dime a dozen

Could you give a reference to correct (advanced) rules?
I prefer memorizing a one instead of studying controversial forum threads

 

[Raymott]

Could you give a reference to correct (advanced) rules?
I prefer memorizing a one instead of studying controversial forum threads

No, I can't, sorry. Most languages don't come with advanced rules. Once you get to a certain level, you're pretty much on your own.
If there was a simple advanced rule book that mandated which forms can be used, there would be no controversy - except perhaps from subversives who refused to speak legally.

But I do sympathise with your plight.

 

[lauralie2]

But it's the sentence I quoted that's in dispute.

Are you sure about that? The sentence you quoted ("If you will be invited...") is not in dispute;unless, that is, you're saying it's grammatical? Are you?

_____________________
Of the examples you provided (See below), not one houses the construct 'if...will be -ing, so I am at a loss as to what it is you are trying to say (Maybe you should have paid to read the article--it answers the OP's question quite nicely).

• It will probably rain tomorrow.
• I will go to the party if Mary invites me.
• I will forgive you if you will apologise.
• I will go to the party if Mary will ask me.

In short, you are saying "If you will be visiting" is an example of nonstandard (Australian) English. Right?

 

[~Mav~]

*** NOT A TEACHER ***


Our esteemed friend, Fivejedjon, has written some excellent papers, one of them is about the meaning of "if". I think the following part of it will be a useful addition to this thread.

2.3. IF with future actual happening or state


By its very nature, the future is uncertain – at least, it cannot be absolutely certain. However, we are able in English to express our own view of the certainty or otherwise of the future. We can use WILL to express our view that the certainty is absolute. Note that in the first two examples below, the certainty expressed by the use of WILL is not about the future; context and/or co-text make the time clear.
26. It's 7 o'clock. Alan will be in London now.
27. He will have arrived on the 14.30 flight.
28. There will be scattered showers in the North tomorrow.
When WILL is used with a future happening or state that is taken as certain by the speaker, then the possibility is, as with a present happening or state (in the speaker's mind) 100%. In such cases, IF carries the idea of granted that this is the case. [...] the theoretical possibility of the non-happening or non-state is acknowledged, but the speaker accepts the reality of the happening or state.
Note that, despite what some English writers and teachers say, the use of WILL in the IF-clause is perfectly natural with this shade of meaning:
29. A. Andrea will be in Manchester next Wednesday.
B. Well, if Andrea will be in Manchester, then we'd better book a hotel for her.

You can find the link to his excellent and instructive papers in his user-profile. I truly hope he doesn't mind my having submitted this post. If he will object to it, I will delete this post as soon as possible :!: (I hope it's correct, and the quoted part is relevant to this thread. )
Thank you.

 

[licinio]

Have you heard of, "Look, if you'll only listen to me, you might understand!"

This is exactly the modal use of will I was referring to. It doesn't mean future, it means willingness, therefore it is allowed even in if-clauses!

 

[Raymott]

This is exactly the modal use of will I was referring to. It doesn't mean future, it means willingness, therefore it is allowed even in if-clauses!

Yes.

 

[Raymott]

In short, you are saying "If you will be visiting" is an example of nonstandard (Australian) English. Right?

No, I'm saying it's normal when used correctly.
I don't know why you are implying that it's nonstandard. I'm also not sure what to make of "nonstandard (Australian) English". We have Bhai and Rover (British), billmcd (US) and me (Aus) having no problem with it. And you (Can) apparently don't like it. That's not a sign of AusE being non-standard on this issue.

In short, I'm saying that "If you will be visiting" is normal standard English.

 

[lauralie2]

In short, I'm saying that "If you will be visiting" is normal standard English.

Standard according to...? Is being a native speaker a source reputable enough? Because that's what you're saying. Show me a grammarian who agrees that 'if...will be -ing" is standard English.

The reason for the request is this. I haven't been able to find such a source, and that has me (as well as the OP--See Post #1) wondering why that is if such a construct is standard English, as you'd expect it to be in a grammar book somewhere, right? Which is what the OP asked. When another poster asked the same question (about source), you responded with something about there not being books dealing with advanced rules.

To be clear, I am not disputing what you think; I am asking for clarification:

If said structure is standard English, then why is it that no one has of yet been able to provide a source for that?

​

Could it be because the structure is non-standard? If so, great. If not, even better. But relying on the grammaticality judgments of native speakers alone is not a reputable enough source. It's just bad teaching.