What is the common thing in "would" in many cases?

[keannu]

I'd like to know what comes to native speakers' mind when they say the following.

[FONT=&#44404]Opinion or hope[/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404][/FONT][FONT=&#44404][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404]- Since you ask me I'd say the blue one is best[/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Polite requests and questions [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]- Would you open the door, please? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Is it all conditional mood? I can understand opinion or hope as they may have the feeling "what if you did this?", but I can't understand for opinion, is it a humble feeling? then it is contradictory of insisting. or is it a less strong insisting? I would (less strongly) imagine? What is the difference with "I want to imagine?"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Your kind answer will be highly appreciated. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][/FONT]​

 

[2006]

I'd like to know what comes to native speakers' minds when they hear the following.

[FONT=&#44404]Opinion or hope[/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. opinion... "would" can be omitted.[/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404]- Since you ask me I'd say the blue one is best opinion[/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Polite requests and questions [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]- Would you open the door, please? It's a request, so you shouldn't use a question mark.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Is it all conditional mood? None of the above sentence are conditional.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]I can understand opinion or hope as they may have the feeling "what if you did this?", not necessarily Opinion and hope are different. but I can't understand for opinion, is it a humble feeling? not necessarily then it is contradictory of insisting. or is it a less strong insisting? An opinion can be expressed very mildly or very strongly or something in between. I would (less strongly) imagine? What is the difference with "I want to imagine?" I can't comment on the last two without context.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

2006

 

[5jj]

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]- Would you open the door, please? It's a request, so you shouldn't use a question mark.

It is indeed a request, but it is framed in the form of a question. I was taught at school many years ago that a question mark was required. I know many who still insist on the question mark. I would not insist on it; however, I would not say that it should not be used.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

 

[2006]

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]- Would you open the door, please? It's a request, so you shouldn't use a question mark.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]It is indeed a request, but it is framed in the form of a question. I was taught at school many years ago that a question mark was required. I know many who still insist on the question mark. I would not insist on it; however, I would not say that it should not be used.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&#44404]​

[/FONT]

1) I don't think it's framed in the form of a question. (unless you let the question mark influence you, which you shouldn't do if you are trying to decide if it should be there in the first place)
2) To me, the presence of "please" argues against it being a question. Logically, it doesn't seem to be a question.

 

[5jj]

1) I don't think it's framed in the form of a question.
With a few exceptions (such as following negative expressions), subject-verb inversion is generally accepted as a sign of a question form.
2) To me, the presence of "please" argues against it being a question.
I said that I considered it a request. To be more explicit, I do not consider it to be a question.
Logically, it doesn't seem to be a question. I agree.

My point was simply that many people insist on a question mark in the written form. A quick check through some of my books showed that Swan (Practical English Usage) uses a question mark, but does not comment on it, as do Celce-Mucia and Larsen-Freeman (The Grammar Book) and Carter and McCarthy (Cambridge Grammar of English)

Sinclair et al (Collins Cobuild English Usage) note: "People occasionally do not put a question mark at the end of a sentence in question form (!, 5jj) if, for example, it is really a request." The use of occasionally suggests to me that they more often do use a question mark. Similarly, Huddleston and Palmer (The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language) write: " The question mark is often replaced ..." in requests.

R W Burchfield (Fowler's Modern English Usage) and Quirk et al (A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language) say that the question mark is not needed in such cases

So, I stand by what I wrote originally: "[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404] I know many who still insist on the question mark. I would not insist on it; however, I would not say that it should not be used."[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Raymott]

My point was simply that many people insist on a question mark in the written form. A quick check through some of my books showed that Swan (Practical English Usage) uses a question mark, but does not comment on it, as do Celce-Mucia and Larsen-Freeman (The Grammar Book) and Carter and McCarthy (Cambridge Grammar of English)

Sinclair et al (Collins Cobuild English Usage) note: "People occasionally do not put a question mark at the end of a sentence in question form (!, 5jj) if, for example, it is really a request." The use of occasionally suggests to me that they more often do use a question mark. Similarly, Huddleston and Palmer (The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language) write: " The question mark is often replaced ..." in requests.

R W Burchfield (Fowler's Modern English Usage) and Quirk et al (A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language) say that the question mark is not needed in such cases

So, I stand by what I wrote originally: "[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404] I know many who still insist on the question mark. I would not insist on it; however, I would not say that it should not be used."[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

My goodness! So much disagreement among grammarians on such a simple matter. And there are otherwise intelligent members of this forum who would expect any grammarian to be able to resolve this matter one way or another. ;-)

 

[5jj]

And there are otherwise intelligent members of this forum who would expect any grammarian to be able to resolve this matter one way or another. ;-)

:lol:

 

[keannu]

I asked for the common thing in other uses of "would" assuming it could be conditional mood, but the discussion is going in another direction,

I'm really desperate to know if so many usages of "would" come from conditional mood.

 

[milan2003_07]

I'd like to know what comes to native speakers' mind when they say the following.

[FONT=&#44404]Opinion or hope[/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]- Since you ask me I'd say the blue one is best[/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Polite requests and questions [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]- Would you open the door, please? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Is it all conditional mood? I can understand opinion or hope as they may have the feeling "what if you did this?", but I can't understand for opinion, is it a humble feeling? then it is contradictory of insisting. or is it a less strong insisting? I would (less strongly) imagine? What is the difference with "I want to imagine?"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Your kind answer will be highly appreciated. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
​

I would say that my brother really enjoyed the match
I would believe my friend is a good person

These sentences illustrate opinion expression, which you've asked about in your sentence #1.

Would you close the door, please?
Would нщu shut the window?

Here "would" makes the sentences sound more polite. "Would" can be replaced with "Could", "Will", and even "Can". However "would" is most frequently used because it's probably the most polite in such contexts.

 

[5jj]

I asked for the common thing in other uses of "would" assuming it could be conditional mood, but the discussion is going in another direction. Sorry about that.
I'm really desperate to know if so many usages of "would" come from conditional mood.

One of the difficulties with your request is that it is not usual to speak of a 'conditional mood' in English grammar. I know you can find references to it (for example: Conditional mood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) but most grammarians do not use this term.

Many languages have a subjunctive mood to express wishes or conditions that are hypothetical or counterfactual. This mood exists in English, but is recognisable only in the third person singular form of verbs in the present tense, and only in the verb BE in the past tense. It is not particularly relevant to would.

We mainly use conditional as a label for sentences that discuss hypothetical or counterfactual situations and their consequences.

Would is probably the most commonly used of the nine modals in second and third conditional sentences, but other modals are also used:

If he missed the last tram, he would/might/could/should catch the night bus.
If he had worn a tie, he would/might/could have got the job.

Would is also used in situations where there is no suggestion of any condition:

When I was a child I would play for hours with my train set.
Harold Wilson was photographed as a child in front of the door to 10 Downing Street, He would be photographed there forty years later as Prime Minister.
Mary said that she would fly to Paris the following day.

Does that move a little way in the direction of telling you what you want to know?

 

[Raymott]

I'd like to know what comes to native speakers' mind when they say the following.

[FONT=&#44404]Opinion or hope[/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]- Since you ask me I'd say the blue one is best[/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Polite requests and questions [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]- Would you open the door, please? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Is it all conditional mood? I can understand opinion or hope as they may have the feeling "what if you did this?", but I can't understand for opinion, is it a humble feeling? then it is contradictory of insisting. or is it a less strong insisting? I would (less strongly) imagine? What is the difference with "I want to imagine?"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Your kind answer will be highly appreciated. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

I'd (sic) say they both derive from the conditional. But it's an unexpressed condition, and yes, it has politeness function.

[FONT=&#44404]Opinion or hope[/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]- Since you ask me I'd say the blue one is best[/FONT]​

I don't see this as hope. The speaker does not necessarily know or care about the answer. The speaker is giving an opinion simpy because they've been asked for one. You can imagine your own conditions:
"I would imagine - if I were remotely interested and were forced to make a guess about their intentions - that they'll buy a new one."
"If I were the colour expert that you appear to think me, I'd say the blue one is best, but really I have no strong preference at all"; "If you are willing to trust my colour taste over your own, I'll say 'blue', but don't blame me if no one else likes it".

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]Polite requests and questions [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]- Would you open the door, please? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

This is a humbling politeness gesture, as you say. You can imagine you own conditionals here too.
"If I were so bold as to ask you to put my own comfort above yours, would you open the door for me?"

This conditional politeness can be carried too far. It can be used as a way to avoid asking a straight question to get a straight answer:

Man: Would you consider marrying such a man as me?
Woman: That depends on whether such a man as you should ask me.
Man: Can I take from that some small hope?
Woman: You must take what you will.
Man: Indeed.
< Both look baffled >

 

[corum]

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]- Would you open the door, please? Is it a conditional mood?

Yes, it is.

The illocutionary force of the sentence is one of polite request, true. However, the sentence is still in second conditional mood (form), in which is disguised the polite request in a hypothetical form, which is more socially acceptable than a command (Open the door!) or a direct request (Open the door.).

Would you open the door (if I asked you to)?

The speaker seeks to maintain a polite fiction for the sake of formulaic politeness, in which the act of the hearer's opening the window taking place is so improbable as to any question to it amounts to little more than speculation.

They are functionally equivalent :
Would you open the door? :tick:
Open the door, please.
Open the door.
[STRIKE]Open the door![/STRIKE]

 

[5jj]

However, the sentence is still in second conditional mood (form), in which is disguised the polite request in a hypothetical form, which is more socially acceptable than a command (Open the door!) or a direct request (Open the door.). As I pointed out earlier, few grammarians use the term 'conditional mood'.

Would you open the door (if I asked you to)?
It could be that this is how the expression originated, but that is not particularly helpful today. The fact is that these words are used to ask someone to open the door. It's a real request, not a hypothetical/conditional one.

The speaker seeks to maintain a polite fiction for the sake of formulaic politeness, in which the act of the hearer's opening the window taking place is so improbable as to any question to it amounts to little more than speculation. Did you mean to use window' here?[/STRIKE]

5

 

[keannu]

[FONT=&#44404]Thank you for your answer, but as you see in the following, except conditional usage of "would" , would has other usages like the following, but as a foreigner, it's not easy to understand and memorize all the usages like these so many ones, so that's why I'm trying to find something in common in so many usages. [/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404]If all the below usages are derived from conditional mood , it would be easier to understand them.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404]I guess remoteness comes from conditional(guessing, or presuming).[/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404]for example, "[FONT=&#44404]I would imagine that they'll buy a new one"[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]=> "It seems possible that I imagine ~~"[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]"Would you open the door, please"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]=> "Does it seem possible that you~~~"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404]I really hope you can understand what I'm getting at.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][FONT=&#44404][/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404][/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404]These are from a grammar website explaining other usage of "would"[/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404]========================================[/FONT]​

[FONT=&#44404]would: Desire or inclination[/FONT]​

• [FONT=&#44404]I'd love to live here. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]Would you like some coffee? [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]What I'd really like is some tea. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]would: Polite requests and questions [/FONT]​

• [FONT=&#44404]Would you open the door, please? (more polite than: Open the door, please.) [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]Would you go with me? (more polite than: Will you go with me?) [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]Would you know the answer? (more polite than: Do you know the answer?) [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]What would the capital of Nigeria be? (more polite than: What is the capital of Nigeria?) [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]would: Opinion or hope[/FONT]​

• [FONT=&#44404]I would imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]I suppose some people would call it torture. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]I would have to agree. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]I would expect him to come. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]Since you ask me I'd say the blue one is best. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]would: Wish[/FONT]​

• [FONT=&#44404]I wish you would stay. (I really want you to stay. I hope you will stay.) [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]They don't like me. I'm sure they wish I'd resign. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]Note that all of these uses of would express some kind of distance or remoteness:[/FONT]​

• [FONT=&#44404]remoteness in time (past time) [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]remoteness of possibility or probability [/FONT]
• [FONT=&#44404]remoteness between speakers (formality, politeness) [/FONT]

 

[Raymott]

It could be that this is how the expression originated, but that is not particularly helpful today.

That was the gist of my message - how this idiom derived. It might not be classified as a "conditional sentence" in traditional grammar, but it's not hard to imagine its origin in some form of conditionality.
The OP can decide if it's helpful to think of it that way or not.

 

[Raymott]

​

[FONT=&#44404]These are from a grammar website explaining other usage of "would"[/FONT]


​

​

Do you have a reference, a URL? We like references here. "A grammar website", by itself, means almost nothing.

 

[Raymott]

would: Desire or inclination

• I'd love to live here.
• Would you like some coffee?
• What I'd really like is some tea.

The ‘desire or inclination’ comes from the following verb, not from ‘would’. You can see this by keeping ‘would’ and changing the verb.

• I'd hate to live here.
• Would you reject some coffee?
• What I'd really regurgitate is some tea

It’s true that ‘would’ is often associated with the expressions you’ve given.




would: Opinion or hope

• I [STRIKE]would[/STRIKE] imagine that they'll buy a new one. (Hope is not necessary here)
• I suppose some people might call it torture. (No hope here). The opinion word is ‘suppose’.
• I [STRIKE]would[/STRIKE] have to agree. (You hope you agree?)
• I [STRIKE]would [/STRIKE]expect him to come. (But I’d prefer he didn’t.)
• Since you ask me I will say the blue one is best. ?Hope

You can leave out ‘would’ or change it to ‘will’ without losing the ‘opinion’ aspect. I can’t see hope as being present in any of these.





would: Wish

• I wish you would stay. (I really want you to stay. I hope you will stay.)
• They don't like me. I'm sure they wish I'd resign.

No, the wish is expressed in “wish” in both cases, not ‘would’. It’s true that ‘would’ is often associated with the expressions you’ve given.

[FONT=&#44404]So, you can see that 'would' does not mean any of those things. In most the meaning comes from other words entirely, and 'would' is incidental.[/FONT]

PS: Your point about the distancing function is probably more convincing.

 

[keannu]

Thank you so much, but I'm a little bit unsure....

 

[keannu]

Opinion or hope
[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]- Since you ask me I'd say the blue one is best[/FONT]​

I don't see this as hope. The speaker does not necessarily know or care about the answer. The speaker is giving an opinion simpy because they've been asked for one. You can imagine your own conditions:


Raymott! You said in two different opposite ways for "would imagine"
First, you said it's conditional mood, then later reinterated that opinion is related to other verbs like "imagine" not "would".

Are other usages of "would" all related to "remoteness" instead of conditional? or are they all both? What is the exact meaning of remoteness? Is it the distance between the speaker and the listener or less chance or possibility of the event mentioned?

 

[keannu]

Raymott!
Would
is where I extracted the examples.