Why are so many native English speakers bad at writing their own language?

[Sakosomo]

I have been using Internet for 15 years. Every time I see anything written by native English speakers (Facebook, Twitter, forums, blogs, websites, e-mails etc.), I notice that most of them, even educated ones, make a lot of mistakes in pretty basic things. They misspell many common words, can't distinguish between homophones and have bad grammar. Their writing skills in general seem to be very poor and nobody seems to care about it. People who studied English as a foreign language tend to write much better, but even when I see immigrants who moved to an English speaking country when they were about 10 years old (and couldn't speak English before that), their writing is often perfect. Why is that? And how is it possible?

 

[Raymott]

That's possibly true. But can you always tell who is a native speaker?
Yes, to someone who likes English, or writing and language in general, most people who write informally on the web, and to newspapers' "Letters to the editor", etc. are semi-literate. English is a difficult language to get right when writing. It's very easy to get "your, you're" and "there, their, they're" wrong. Non-native speakers who are bad at learning language probably simply don't write English, whereas native speakers have to.

Also, the standard of English teaching in the last 50 years or so has been abysmal, with concentration on critical thinking, etc. rather than actually being able to spell and punctuate. Many schools stopped teaching grammar, whereas most ESL students do learn grammar. There might also be an element of non-native writers trying harder to write correctly.
When you say that nobody seems to care about it, how can you tell? A lot of people care. There are complaints in the press here all the time about the poor English teaching standards, and how first year university students need to be taught basic literacy skills.

What's the Bosnian language like on Bosnian forums and chat sites?

 

[Sakosomo]

That's possibly true. But can you always tell who is a native speaker?

I can tell who is a native speaker by their names and personal info on social network sites, because I use those a lot. I communicate with a lot of people from all around the world. No offence, but I have to admit that so many of them appear to be quite illiterate, even though some have university diploma. (And yes, the your/you're thing is so common, at least 90% of people online make that mistake.) Interestingly, many foreign kids who grow up in English speaking countries pay much more attention to it. Even some of my relatives who moved to America or Australia during the Bosnian war write much better and more correct English than native speakers.

When you say that nobody seems to care about it, how can you tell?

Because usually when someone corrects them, they say: "Who cares, as long as you know what I mean."

What's the Bosnian language like on Bosnian forums and chat sites?

I have to admit that using Internet (especially international sites) is still not as common in Bosnia as it is in western countries. Bosnians who write online are usually diaspora (people who live abroad), even though, of course, a lot of us in Bosnia use it as well. Bosnian language is essentially the same as Serbian and Croatian; we only use different names for political reasons. Our language is completely phonetic, so spelling is not a problem, but when I was in school we paid a lot of attention to the grammar and had to learn it extensively. For me personally, it is very hard to understand how someone can be unable to write in his/her own language correctly. Until recently, most people here didn't speak foreign languages, but nowadays our educational system has changed and learning English is very important.

 

[konungursvia]

It is a question of vernacular English as well. You learnt English in a very narrow sense, the most standard written English. No one speaks that way, not all of the time. English grammar, loosely defined, allows many different levels of speech, and alternate constructions. A few examples:

'Nuff said.
Hella good player.
Sup?
Is you is, or is you ain't, my baby?

Another point is spelling. For most of the history of English, it has been a very free language. No Académie Française telling us how to speak or write. Even spelling was purely personal until the Chambers Dictionary.

It is also a good deal harder to write well when our structures allow such a variety of possible forms. Most languages are more rigid in grammar. For example, Chinese, in which you must write declarative sentences in this order: When + who + what they did.

So, in Chinese, this is not possible:

Lying in the sun, soaking up the rays, just relaxing.... my whole family and I spent the first week of July in Jamaica, and it was awesome.

The only possibilty in Chinese is something like this:

In the first week of July, I with my family went to Jamaica, where we lay in the sun, soaking up the rays, just relaxing.

Also, the liberalism of English speaking countries means, for better or worse, that we generally spend less time admiring and respecting that which has gone before than other cultures. Those who spell in a telegraphic way, for brevity, and those who write informally, are tolerated, when the discourse is *not* intended to help learners, as is the case here.

So, your view of English may be narrower than mine.

 

[Sakosomo]

You learnt English in a very narrow sense, the most standard written English. No one speaks that way, not all of the time. English grammar, loosely defined, allows many different levels of speech, and alternate constructions. A few examples:

'Nuff said.
Hella good player.
Sup?
Is you is, or is you ain't, my baby?

I understand informal and colloquial speech, but that's not the reason to not know the difference between "to" and "too", or "than" and "then", or many other basic things. Some of the things I see are pretty shocking, and it's so common that I see it almost everywhere.

 

[konungursvia]

When I read Le Monde, and have a look at people's private blogs, even those linked by Le Monde, I am equally surprised at the spelling of native speakers. But you and I are a skewed sample. Educated people who are educated enough to acquire a second language accurately, and educated enough to accurately judge how well native speakers write that language. But there are plenty of people for whom formal education is not a big feature of their lives.

 

[Sakosomo]

But you and I are a skewed sample. Educated people who are educated enough to acquire a second language accurately, and educated enough to accurately judge how well native speakers write that language.

In my experience, most Europeans are multilingual. Learning English is very important in Europe and many people speak some other foreign languages too. So, I don't think it's a skewed sample, I think it is pretty common. Learning to use your native language correctly in both spoken and written form should be even more important.

 

[Raymott]

So, let's clarify this. You're not really after explanations for your experience that English natives write worse than others. Your aim is simply to make sure we know that they do, and that they shouldn't. Is that a fair assumption? Because you seem to be rejecting every attempt to explain it.
You say, "when I was in school we paid a lot of attention to the grammar and had to learn it extensively" and I said that the teaching of grammar in English classes for English-speaking students is abysmal. Wouldn't that have some effect?
You also say that Bosnians don't use the 'net as much as other people. If every Bosnian child had an internet connection and felt compelled to post their every thought on the 'net, do you think the incidence of bad Bosnian language might increase?

When you say that nobody seems to care about it, how can you tell?
Because usually when someone corrects them, they say: "Who cares, as long as you know what I mean."

Ah, you mean that no one who does this cares. That would make sense. That's a different claim from "Nobody cares" Many of us care, as I've explained.

But if you accept none of our possible explanations, what do you think might be the cause?

 

[Tdol]

So, I don't think it's a skewed sample, I think it is pretty common

Any sample that isn't wide enough is skewed, and yours, which comprises a narrow selection of web sources seen through a prejudiced eye, is very probably skewed. I am not saying there aren't problems with people mistaking to/too on the web - there definitely are. However, for a figure to have any meaning, it would have to be compared to something else, so that the decline could be measured.

One factor that you haven't included is the number of residents in English-speaking countries who are not native speakers- that is a consequence of having a very multicultural society, which means that comparisons to less multicultural societies is less valid than comparisons to equally multicultural societies.

You are right to say that there are issues, but your 90% figure for your/you're is simply made-up. If you want to establish the real figure, and it will be high, you'd need to do more than throw out a random number that suits you. You would have to design a test that would show what people really knew, and not an exaggeration of what spellcheckers didn't spot for people writing BTL. It would be worryingly high, but not near this 90% nonsense.

 

[Sakosomo]

So, let's clarify this. You're not really after explanations for your experience that English natives write worse than others. Your aim is simply to make sure we know that they do, and that they shouldn't.

That is not true. I am very interested in the reasons why it is that way.

 

[Sakosomo]

One factor that you haven't included is the number of residents in English-speaking countries who are not native speakers- that is a consequence of having a very multicultural society, which means that comparisons to less multicultural societies is less valid than comparisons to equally multicultural societies.

As I said, from what I see on social networks, most of these people have English names and they were born and raised in English speaking countries. In fact, I just did a little test on Facebook and concluded that people with foreign names tend to pay more attention to writing correctly.

You are right to say that there are issues, but your 90% figure for your/you're is simply made-up. If you want to establish the real figure, and it will be high, you'd need to do more than throw out a random number that suits you. You would have to design a test that would show what people really knew, and not an exaggeration of what spellcheckers didn't spot for people writing BTL. It would be worryingly high, but not near this 90% nonsense.

The percentage I came up with is my personal perception based on what I see on the Internet. When you check ordinary people's Facebook or Twitter accounts, almost everyone seems to misuse that particular word.

 

[emsr2d2]

There is a simple answer, at least for BrE speakers. We are not taught spelling or grammar at school. We pick up the language organically from our family, friends and school colleagues from a very early age. Some of us are lucky enough to have had relatives who had a real interest in language who insisted on teaching us such aspects of the language privately. I can recall spelling tests at school up to the age of about eight, but we were tested on "difficult" words like "accommodation" and "weird". We were never tested on standard words. We were just expected to soak them up through reading. I know some incredibly intelligent and well-educated people who mix up "to/too" (sometimes "two" too), "their/they're/there" and "its/it's". Sometimes it's just a genuine slip when we're typing fast and the wrong homonym comes out but sometimes, it's just that the writer really doesn't know the difference.

My Spanish students were always staggered to learn that in the UK, we don't "learn" English formally.

I have plenty of Facebook and Twitter friends and nowhere near 90% of them misuse "your/you're". I see that error perhaps a couple of times a week and it's frequently from same user.

 

[Raymott]

What I feel is missing is some more comments on other languages. Kon has given us an idea that not all French-speakers write perfectly.
We all know that native English speakers generally cannot write an error-free paragraph, but can any other linguistic group?

In any event, I agree that English is poorly taught to English-natives. The Australian newspaper has an ongoing campaign about this. My own opinion is that teacher training has been going down-hill since the Teacher Training Colleges were scrapped, and potential teachers who sent to university where they learnt deconstructionism and other postmodern theory, left-wing pedagogy, but no actual subject material. This happened long enough ago now, that the teachers of the teachers don't know grammar.

Examples:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/literacy-taught-by-illiterates/story-e6frg6zo-1111115652926
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-tragedy-pm-says/story-fn3dxity-1226270826374

There is certainly a lot anger among parents that their children are not being taught how to read and write correctly. The only possible defense is whether the students really are becoming more versatile, rounded and critical thinking for having been taught the postmodern agenda instead of the three Rs.

 

[konungursvia]

I agree with Ray. And, not to push the Marxist view of history too far, there is an economic factor in all this. While we in Ontario enjoy a very good public education system (http://www.economist.com/node/21529014), in general, the English speaking world is, as Tdol hints, the most dynamic, fastest-changing economy of economies in the world. There is just so much career hopping, redefining and reinventing jobs, and immigration (I include this as a positive factor) that we are at the forefront of a very modern trend, which may in part be due to globalization: the world is changing, and most developed economies are full of middle class people who are clinging to standards of living established in the post-war years, but which now require 2 incomes.

The parents are both at work. The kids are loved, but somewhat neglected. The teachers are not just teaching the 3 R's, but behaviour, ethics, basic life skills, and emotional well being. The teacher's job has expanded to include allo-parenting in a big way.

I am sure most countries are about to follow suit.

 

[Sakosomo]

There is a simple answer, at least for BrE speakers. We are not taught spelling or grammar at school. We pick up the language organically from our family, friends and school colleagues from a very early age.

My Spanish students were always staggered to learn that in the UK, we don't "learn" English formally.

I have heard that before and it really is somewhat surprising. Thinking about this phenomenon, I have concluded that this is why people who study English as a foreign language tend to learn all the details and nuances better. But I'm genuinely curious about this: I often communicate with non-native English speakers who moved to an English speaking country at an early age and grew up with the native kids. They went to the same schools, were exposed to the same influences etc., and yet they often write better than most native speakers. For example, they pay attention to every apostrophe, don't misuse homophones and generally spell better. Why is that? Do you think they pay more attention to the language and teach themselves what they are not taught in school? Or does it also help that they speak one more language as well, besides English?

 

[emsr2d2]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Children who move to an English-speaking country want/need to learn the language fairly quickly. In addition to picking up the language from their school friends, they almost certainly study the language formally, perhaps at home with their parents or at extra-curricular classes. This would, in my opinion, include grammar study. It is also likely that if their native language is a very grammar-based one, they will immediately look at and learn the grammar side of English to a far greater extent than native speakers.

 

[Roman55]

I'd like to chime in a little late.

I receive large quantities of written correspondence on a daily basis, mainly in the form of emails, and it is all in French.

It is a rare pleasure to read one that isn't riddled with errors. From my personal experience I would judge that my French is far better than the average native speaker's. In the French school system they devote much more time to learning the grammar of their own language than I ever did, so how do you explain that? People are just lazy or they don't care. The sheer crassness of the mistakes is mind-boggling. I could almost have written the same post as Sakosomo, so I don't think the problem is confined to native English speakers, and in fact I have not noticed the same degree of ignorance amongst them. Then again, I don't spend any time on social networks.

 

[Sakosomo]

I'd like to chime in a little late.

I receive large quantities of written correspondence on a daily basis, mainly in the form of emails, and it is all in French.

It is a rare pleasure to read one that isn't riddled with errors. From my personal experience I would judge that my French is far better than the average native speaker's. In the French school system they devote much more time to learning the grammar of their own language than I ever did, so how do you explain that? People are just lazy or they don't care. The sheer crassness of the mistakes is mind-boggling. I could almost have written the same post as Sakosomo, so I don't think the problem is confined to native English speakers, and in fact I have not noticed the same degree of ignorance amongst them. Then again, I don't spend any time on social networks.

I don't speak any other foreign languages, so I can only judge about English. Your insight is valuable. Although, I have to admit, French spelling seems to me even more illogical than English. All the silent letters and hundreds of different ways to spell the same sound. I can pretty much guess the pronunciation of most European languages, but when I see a French word, I can't even begin guessing. All that said, I suppose it's hard for me to understand how someone can have problems with spelling, because my native language is completely phonetic - each sound is represented by only one letter and vice versa, each letter represents only one sound. Yet, it looks terrible to see some basic grammar mistakes in English made by the native speakers; having an illogical spelling system is not an excuse for those. I don't know what happens in other languages though.

 

[Raymott]

All that said, I suppose it's hard for me to understand how someone can have problems with spelling, because my native language is completely phonetic [...]

Two further points - one general and the other personal.
The ten-year old migrants may feel that they have to make an extra effort to be accepted by their peers. Since native speakers make different errors than non-native speakers, it is in the interests of the immigrant to lessen the total number of errors made, whereas only some native speakers care about language, and those who don't won't be rejected by their like-minded peers. (They may be rejected by the "grammar police" and the goody two-shoes - but that doesn't worry them).

I would have thought that once you'd realised that your language was phonetic, and that English and French are not, you would be more likely, rather than less, to understand how such mistakes are made by natives. "My language is phonetic, so I don't understand why others whose language is not have so much trouble." It doesn't sound logical.
You began asking for reasons, now you're looking for excuses ("having an illogical spelling system is not an excuse for those"). Have we been trying to give reasons when all along you want someone to come up with excuses for those who do it? You've probably come to the wrong place for that because most of us here try to write properly, and are often just as annoyed at bad English as you seem to be. But I think that the reasons given could be used as a basis for an excuse if one were necessary. In any event, you have given us the excuses - they don't care, and you know what they mean anyway.

 

[Tdol]

The percentage I came up with is my personal perception

Having problems with spelling in a language that has inherent problems with spelling is not seen as such a problem. When taking someone's name and address, we almost ask for the spellings. I doubt that any of us here can claim never to have written something like here instead of hear, especially when writing under conditions like Facebook where people aren't very bothered. We have a regular poster here who isn't sure of grammar, she's a native speaker, and asks questions when she has to send out work correspondence- she checks that, but she never asks questions about what she posts on Facebook, and never will. No one denies the existence of serious issues, but your sampling methodology is unscientific.

I agree with Konungursvia about the changes that have occurred in life here having a major impact and that these are probably just a forefront for a wider problem coming, but making figures up does not lead to an understanding, much less to designing strategies that will deal with it. Fortunately, the English language is robust and has shown itself to be capable of making radical changes to deal with changing circumstances before, so it is very likely to be able to deal with these challenges- it's not going to brought down by a few homophones and misused words.