Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

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MikeNewYork

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I am not surprised that you have ignored my posts. You can't weasel out of the sentence "Spot is a dog" with your theoretical nonsense. If that is a sentence, then "is" is a verb. If it is not a sentence, please tell me what it is. Based on your previous offerings, I am guessing that you think "dog" is an adverb there. :roll: I don't think you have the slightest understanding of English grammar.
 

DarrenTomlyn

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You really don't get it at all, do you?

The English language has many different types of information that can be represented in a single sentence - the overall type of message can change depending on the different concepts it can contain. Using a single manner of use to represent different, disparate and unrelated concepts - (which you do not fully recognise and understand, yet) - that affect the overall meaning of such a message/sentence, is inconsistent with the the basic reason for recognising such different manners of use and concepts in the first place - and therefore the basic reason for the existence of language, aswell as its overall context - (semiosis) - (semantics/syntactics).

Either the rules of language are consistent or they have no reason to exist. The reason we have problems is that we currently ignore the differences in order to make the teaching of the language simple, in a manner that is consistent with our overall, flawed, perception of it - which just makes it too simplistic, instead.

The current sentence structure we use is inconsistent and therefore problematic, since it doesn't reflect the differences in meaning the language represents. Trying to say that it isn't, is just denying the problems we have, which you do not fully recognise or understand, either.

EDIT: If you are telling me that the overall type of message is the same between:

Spot is a dog
Spot moved a dog

Which it would have to be for is to be recognised as a verb, then you have serious problems.
 
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MikeNewYork

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I get it just fine. You can't figure out what a simple sentence is.

You keep referring to the problems "we" have. It appears that you are the one having problems.

Spot is a dog. Study it. It might help.
 

MikeNewYork

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"Spot is a dog" is a complete sentence with a meaning. "Spot moved a dog" has little meaning for me. The overall message is nowhere near the same. "Is" is indeed a verb. So is "moved". But "dog" is not an adverb. :roll:
 

DarrenTomlyn

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Perhaps you'd prefer: Spot moved the dog instead, but the structure is still the same, with the same inconsistencies.

There are a number of basic relationships that matter for grammar (prepositions and determiners can be added as applicable, as can the words very/quite etc. as described in my post):

noun/noun (or pronouns)
noun/adjective
noun/verb
(noun)/verb/adverb
(noun)/verb/adjective
Noun/relative time or space
(noun)/verb/relative time or space
relative time or space/property of such (No current manners of use for this)

The word IS can be used within and IN ADDITION to ALL of these manners of use, EXCEPT for verb/adjective and verb/adverb - THIS CANNOT BE TRUE if the word is was possibly part of the same concept that causes the use of verb itself, and if it's not, then it makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever to give it the same manner of use as any other concept.

Since IS cannot be given a property that causes the use of adverb, it cannot be a verb. Since IS has no relationship to any and all other concepts derived from the basic concepts causing verbs and adverbs, it cannot be used as a verb - NONE OF WHICH ARE RECOGNISED CURRENTLY BECAUSE OF THE CONFUSION FOR SUCH A CONCEPT.
 

MikeNewYork

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LOL! And yet, "is" is still a verb whether or not you agree. You can either change reality to fit your "rules" or change your "rules" to fit reality. As you currently put out your rules, nobody of substance will buy them.
 

Tdol

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Traditional grammar allows for be to go with certain types of adverbs. It is only by your reclassifying these as relative time or space that you create the situation where you say it cannot be a verb because it cannot go with an adverb. This introduces a certain circularity in the argument.
 

MikeNewYork

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Yes, the verb "is" is not always a linking verb. Sometimes it used to mean "presently exists". In that use, "is" can take an adverb.

She is there now.
She is in the park.
He is in Cleveland.

All of them answer the question "where", which is a cardinal sign of an adverb.
 

Tarheel

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DarrenTomlyn, your weird use of the word "cause" has turned me off. Apparently, Tdol and MikeNewYork have more than the average amount of patience.
:roll:
 

MikeNewYork

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For me, it is sport!
 

Tdol

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And there are other cases to be made out for whether something is a verb, such as its ability to occupy a certain position in a sentence, which be does. I am afraid that, for me, defining things on your own terms and then stating that these subjective definitions prove that everything we understand about grammar is wrong just doesn't work for me. I disagree with Mike about some fundamental issues about grammar, and have done so online for over a decade, but he and I have always managed to agree about the terms on which we have disagreed. Here, I am struggling because you are redefining the terms on a CAPSLOCK basis to prove your point. Be can only not go with an adverb if you redefine adverb. Putting that to one side, the copular form of it doesn't go with certain adverbs, but then that is a deficiency of traditional grammar even though it has classified this as a specific and specialised type of verb, which somehow doesn't account for explaining it as a verb. I am dropping out of this thread. Good luck with explaining your theory to a conservative grammar world. If you're right, you might just possibly win out, though that is not guaranteed and far better ideas have failed. If you're wrong and, while this forum barely qualifies as a straw poll, you have convinced no wing of its participants, you may well not win.
 

DarrenTomlyn

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LOL! And yet, "is" is still a verb whether or not you agree. You can either change reality to fit your "rules" or change your "rules" to fit reality. As you currently put out your rules, nobody of substance will buy them.

Be is used as a verb, because it's a thing of happening, with related words (tense etc.) such as being and been, which is/am/are are used IN ADDITION TO - IN COMBINATION WITH - (along with another word will). I have not mentioned the word be anywhere because it is part of the basic concept I've dealt with in its entirety.

The most basic rule of language is:

The type of information being communicated (content->semantics), determines how and why its representation is used (in combination with others) (grammar->syntactics). (The basic cause and effect language adds to communication.)

The default premise should be of each type of information having its own manner of use UNLESS demonstrated otherwise. We can REVERSE ENGINEER such concepts by studying their manner of use, but must never be DEFINED as and by such a process, which is the mistake we are currently making.

The basic combinations of concept and manner of use (which I've labelled as basic means of grammar) is what really matters - and confusing concepts for their manner of use gets in the way of that. (Again, there are 60+ concepts in the English language.)

ALL concepts in the English language exist in a single, functional, taxonomic hierarchy that reflects their basic existence in the universe around us that we perceive - and so the concept we call things acts as its root.

Is/am/are are used in combination with words belonging to things of happening, which cause verbs, therefore cannot be used as verbs themselves, even though the concept they belong to is related to, if not derived from them. (Auxiliary verb does not exist, for that is not consistent with all of their use, merely part, and is therefore inconsistent with how such basic manners of use are perceived and described in (the English) language.) If such derivation was all that was required for a single manner of use, however, then that would be all we would have (since everything is derived from things).

Is/am/are do not have any additional properties (e.g. adverbs). Any and all properties used in combination are those they relate to something else, for that is what they do. If you don't know, or refuse to accept that the words is/am/are represent information that MUST belong to a different concept than words such as be/fly/jumping/moved etc., then your understanding of the language is probably already too far gone to be of much use.

But this is the problem we have by confusing the SINGLE, BASIC manner of use they must cause with that of a different, (but related, not that it matters for syntactics), concept.

----------------

Our understanding of how English treats time and space is also problematic, but I was leaving it until later. Needless to say that using is to relate nouns/relative time and space, does not mean it is a verb at all. Note that relative time and space can also be treated as properties (adjectives/adverbs) which are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT concepts, meaning, and therefore manners of use:

Indoor tennis/the tennis is indoors.

Since we can also say:

The tennis is played indoors, (or we play tennis indoors).

The words is and played cannot belong to the same concept. Since they don't belong to the same concept they do not require the same manner of use, which they obviously do not have, anyway.

Indoor and indoors cannot have the same meaning, either, in the above sentences, and so must also belong to different concepts. (Relative time (both absolute and comparative (early/earlier etc.)) and space, (e.g. indoors,above), that are not simple properties, are among the only concepts that DO NOT CHANGE (aswell as those representing such relationships themselves, like is/and/have etc.) regardless of whether they are used in combination with nouns or verbs. Which makes sense, for they are the setting in which they exist, not properties they have. This is why I listed them in the combinations further above.

Note that relative, absolute comparative time, (earliest/latest), is used as an adjective/verb/(noun?) rather than the manner of use above - (though its use as a noun? requires its own concept - e.g. I'll see you tomorrow at the bar/earliest - and I am unsure of the noun, even though it would appear similar, because it doesn't really have any additional properties (used as adjectives)).
 
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MikeNewYork

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And yet, "is" is still a verb. This post is full of more gibberish than the others. Do you get paid by the word?
 

Tdol

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Indoor and indoors cannot have the same meaning, either, in the above sentences, and so must also belong to different concepts.

How come? They may have different grammatical forms, but they both describe the same thing in different ways according to their function in the sentence. Are you seriously saying that indoor tennis and tennis indoors are so fundamentally different that they do not share any meaning?
 

DarrenTomlyn

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How come? They may have different grammatical forms, but they both describe the same thing in different ways according to their function in the sentence. Are you seriously saying that indoor tennis and tennis indoors are so fundamentally different that they do not share any meaning?

Yes, they are actually two distinct forms of the game itself - there are specific indoor tennis championships/tournaments. Even though Wimbledon's centre court has a roof and can therefore be turned/made indoors, it's still an outdoor tennis championship - so you can play tennis indoors, in an outdoors tennis tournament.

How about: the indoors cat/the cat is indoors? The post/bus is early/It is the early post/bus? It's the same relationship and difference.

We can give such things (nouns) PROPERTIES of relative time/space, or they can EXIST in relative time and space, (which things of happening do). The two are not the same thing. This is why the latter involves more distinct concepts and therefore associated manners of use, since it is now the other concepts (including things/things of happening) that exist in relation to them, rather than the other way round as it is for properties they have.

And yet, "is" is still a verb. This post is full of more gibberish than the others. Do you get paid by the word?

If you think this is gibberish you can have no consistent and relevant understanding of linguistics, language, communication or semiosis at all. Just because 'is' is believed to be a verb, doesn't automatically make it so, based on the basic rules and functionality of the language that we already recognise. Inconsistency is the enemy of language - the very thing it exists to counteract - and so any inconsistency in its rules means it cannot do its job properly, and function consistently.

If you haven't read part 1 of my blog - I suggest you start there.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DarrenTomlyn/20110311/6174/Contents_NEW.php

I dare anyone to argue with the basic content of part 1 of my blog - I've ran it past experts already, and they had no problems with it, but since they are retired they cannot help me directly.
 
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Tarheel

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Let's call it a house cat
And be done with that.

;-)
 

MikeNewYork

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<<<I've ran it past experts already, and they had no problems with it, but since they are retired they cannot help me directly.>>>

I am not surprised. I don't think anybody can help you until you descend from your high horse.
 

MikeNewYork

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Schrodinger's cat?
 

Tdol

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Yes, they are actually two distinct forms of the game itself - there are specific indoor tennis championships/tournaments. Even though Wimbledon's centre court has a roof and can therefore be turned/made indoors, it's still an outdoor tennis championship - so you can play tennis indoors, in an outdoors tennis tournament.

My questions was whether they were so fundamentally different that they shared no meaning- when they put the roof up at Wimbledon, it shares some meaning even though it is outdoors tennis,it is outdoors tennis under a roof to protect it from the weather, and shares that aspect with indoor/all-weather tennis. It is not a 0% relationship in terms of meaning.
 

Tdol

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<<<I've ran it past experts already, and they had no problems with it, but since they are retired they cannot help me directly.>>>

I am not surprised. I don't think anybody can help you until you descend from your high horse.

Retirement doesn't make academics' opinions worthless, so I don't get the logic behind this claim.On a point about part one of the blog, it presupposes a monolithic view of language, which is not what I have experienced.
 
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