Abstract Noun Phrase

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Atchan

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Today, I want to study the principle of the abstract noun phrase so, can any teacher explain me its principle. By the way, when you are giving me its principle I want you to be sure, although I get its principle but it confused me. After that I will do some exercises so get ready teachers. :cool:

Is this principle is OK?
The + playing + of + football

But when there is a name or a pronoun, will it be like this?
Peter's + playing + of + football
His + Playing + of + football

Does present perfect tense, past perfect tense, present perfect continuous tense, or past perfect continuous tense works well with this principle?

Can we say:
Peter's + playing + of + football + has been an exiting sport for him. / has made him happy.

[STRIKE]This thread is special to the teachers for clarification not students![/STRIKE] This thread is for all ;-)

Thank you in advance.
 
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Rover_KE

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Atchan, some of the non-teachers on this board regularly give excellent answers to students' questions.

It is in your own interest to show them some respect rather than exclude them from trying to help you.

If their answers are wrong a teacher will soon put them right.

Rover
 

Atchan

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Atchan, some of the non-teachers on this board regularly give excellent answers to students' questions.

It is in your own interest to show them some respect rather than exclude them from trying to help you.

If their answers are wrong a teacher will soon put them right.

Rover
OK, this thread is for all. I know that there are clever students in this forum and I respect them, but I was scaring to give me fault principle, but now I can trust them although there are teachers.
 
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TheParser

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OK, this thread is for all. I know that there are clever students in this forum and I respect them, but I was scaring to give me fault principle, but now I can trust them although there are teachers.

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Hello, Atchan.

(1) I understand how you feel.

(2) You are afraid that a non-teacher will give you a wrong answer

and then you will be very confused.

(3) Of course, you can always write something courteous such as:

"I would greatly appreciate it if only teachers responded. Thank you."

(4) Here is something else that you can do:

(a) Before you read a post, look for "teacher" or "academic" in the upper

right-hand corner. Or look for the words "moderator" or "editor." Those

are language professionals.

(b) If you see the words "NOT A TEACHER" or "student," you can do two

things:

(i) Be courteous and press the "thanks" button because s/he took time

and effort to answer you.

(ii) Then skip that post. = do not read that post; go to the next post.

Then you will not have to worry that a non-teacher has maybe given

you a wrong and confusing answer.

***** Thank you *****

P.S. I have not tried to answer your grammar question, because it is

too difficult for me. Hopefully, a teacher will soon answer your question.
 

TheParser

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Today, I want to study the principle of the abstract noun phrase so, can any teacher explain me its principle. By the way, when you are giving me its principle I want you to be sure, although I get its principle but it confused me. After that I will do some exercises so get ready teachers. :cool:

Is this principle is OK?
The + playing + of + football

But when there is a name or a pronoun, will it be like this?
Peter's + playing + of + football
His + Playing + of + football

Does present perfect tense, past perfect tense, present perfect continuous tense, or past perfect continuous tense works well with this principle?

Can we say:
Peter's + playing + of + football + has been an exiting sport for him. / has made him happy.

[STRIKE]This thread is special to the teachers for clarification not students![/STRIKE] This thread is for all ;-)

Thank you in advance.

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Hello, Atchan.

(1) Teacher Rover was nice enough to give that link.

(2) I studied it very carefully.

(3) I learned a lot:

(a) Yes, this principle does work with the different tenses.

(b) "Peter's/His playing of football has been an exciting sport" is not

correct because:

(i) If you erase the words "of football," your sentence becomes:

His playing has been an exciting sport. Of course, "playing" is not

a sport. Football is the sport.


(i) As one poster told you, you have a choice:

(a) Peter's/His playing of football has become more frequent (playing is

frequent) / Peter's playing of football is exciting for him (playing is

exciting).

(b) OR: Football is an exciting sport for him (football is sport).

(4) I think that the MAIN THING to remember is that an noun like

"playing" should NOT refer to a noun like "football."

Playing is fun/ exciting/ tiring/ boring/necessary.

Football is a sport/ game/ business.

(5) And two posters told you that in American and in British English,

it is more idiomatic (idiomatic = the way native speakers use the

language) NOT to use "of." You will sound more like a native speaker

if you say:

Peter's playing football is becoming more and more frequent.

(6) If you have more questions about this matter, just post them.

Someone will be delighted to help you because we all know that you are

a very serious and courteous student who wants to learn perfect English

for your future career.

***** Thank you *****
 

Atchan

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(a) Yes, this principle does work with the different tenses.
I didn't understand what you mean. maybe you mean that it doesn't work with abstract noun phrase.

Can I say: Tom's running behind his friend has been made him tired. (maybe right or not)
Note: Here I'm not talking about my sentence, I'm talking about the principle.
Can they work with this principle? Yes or No with some examples and clarification. Thanks :-D

(5) And two posters told you that in American and in British English,

it is more idiomatic (idiomatic = the way native speakers use the

language) NOT to use "of." You will sound more like a native speaker

if you say:

Peter's playing football is becoming more and more frequent.
Do you mean that it's not important but my dad said it's very important for this rule. Is it same if I use it or not?
 
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TheParser

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I didn't understand what you mean. maybe you mean that it doesn't work with abstract noun phrase.

Can I say: Tom's running behind his friend has been made him tired. (maybe right or not)
Note: Here I'm not talking about my sentence, I'm talking about the principle.
Can they work with this principle? Yes or No with some examples and clarification. Thanks :-D


Do you mean that it's not important but my dad said it's very important for this rule. Is it same if I use it or not?

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Hello, Atchan.

(1) Hopefully, a teacher will soon answer your two questions.

(2) As I type this, no one has answered yet, so I shall start.

(3) In that link, one poster said this principle DOES work with various

tenses, and the poster gave you 4 examples of has/became/will become/ and was becoming. (Please review that link that Teacher Rover gave us.)

*****

(4) I sincerely believe that "Peter's playing football" is "better" than

"Peter's playing of football." In fact, maybe (maybe) some (many? most?)

teachers would suggest that you NOT use "of." OF COURSE, you must be

very respectful of your father. If he wants you to use it, then you should

do so. But I think that most teachers would agree with the two posters

in the link that "of" is definitely not idiomatic (that is, native speakers

do not use it).

***** Thank you for your question *****

P. S. Please continue to post questions about this matter until

you find an answer that satisfies you. Many people here are happy

to give you their views.
 

Atchan

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***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Hello, Atchan.

(1) Hopefully, a teacher will soon answer your two questions.

(2) As I type this, no one has answered yet, so I shall start.

(3) In that link, one poster said this principle DOES work with various

tenses, and the poster gave you 4 examples of has/became/will become/ and was becoming. (Please review that link that Teacher Rover gave us.)


***** Thank you for your question *****

P. S. Please continue to post questions about this matter until

you find an answer that satisfies you. Many people here are happy

to give you their views.
I'm talking about...
has /has been /had /had been
I want you to do a sentence of each type of these tenses. :-D

Because when I use them during a sentence, it became strange to others.
What relating to the other tenses, I know them very good.

For me, I will not understand well until I do a sentences and examples of them.

Thank you for your help
 

TheParser

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I'm talking about...
has /has been /had /had been
I want you to do a sentence of each type of these tenses. :-D

Because when I use them during a sentence, it became strange to others.
What relating to the other tenses, I know them very good.

For me, I will not understand well until I do a sentences and examples of them.

Thank you for your help

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Hello, Atchan.

(1) Thanks for the note.

(2) I have a suggestion:

Please start a new thread and give some sentences that you say

sound strange to others. Then some of the wonderful teachers here

will answer you. I will read your new thread with great interest because

I want to see what the teachers tell you. I need to learn, too.

***** Thank you *****
 

Atchan

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***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Hello, Atchan.

(1) Thanks for the note.

(2) I have a suggestion:

Please start a new thread and give some sentences that you say

sound strange to others. Then some of the wonderful teachers here

will answer you. I will read your new thread with great interest because

I want to see what the teachers tell you. I need to learn, too.

***** Thank you *****
Thank you for your help. I like to, but I don't have a time to write sentences because its too late. I will write them tomorrow not Friday because I should watch world cup quarter final games. :shock:

Have a nice day/night
 

philo2009

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Today, I want to study the principle of the abstract noun phrase so, can any teacher explain me its principle. By the way, when you are giving me its principle I want you to be sure, although I get its principle but it confused me. After that I will do some exercises so get ready teachers. :cool:

Is this principle is OK?
The + playing + of + football

But when there is a name or a pronoun, will it be like this?
Peter's + playing + of + football
His + Playing + of + football

Does present perfect tense, past perfect tense, present perfect continuous tense, or past perfect continuous tense works well with this principle?

Can we say:
Peter's + playing + of + football + has been an exiting sport for him. / has made him happy.

[STRIKE]This thread is special to the teachers for clarification not students![/STRIKE] This thread is for all ;-)

Thank you in advance.

Just one or two points that may be of help:

1. Rather than 'abstract nouns' per se, what we are actually dealing with here is the use of the gerund (a kind - but only one kind - of abstract noun).

2. Although formally identical, gerunds fall functionally into two types: simple gerunds, which combine verbal and nominal (noun-like) powers, and participial nouns, which are simply nouns in -ing derived from verbs.

The difference between them is that the former can simultaneously stand as the subject or object of a verb (like any noun) and yet govern an object and take adverbial modification (like any verb), as illustrated by 'playing' in

[1] Do you mind my quietly playing the piano while you read?

which both stands as object of the verb 'mind' and governs in turn NP 'the piano' as its own object, whilst being modified by adverb 'quietly'.

Simple gerunds can be determined by possessive adjectives (my, his, etc.) or possessive-case nouns (John's, the doctor's, etc.)** serving to denote the agent of the action, but not by articles.

Thus we cannot have e.g.

[1a] *Do you mind the quietly playing the piano while you read?

A participial noun, on the other hand, is the exact opposite: it can neither govern an object nor take adverbial modification, and it can be (in fact, almost always is) determined by the definite article. E.g.

[2] The playing of pianos late at night is strictly prohibited here.

where 'playing' connects to its notional object, like any noun denoting a transitive action, by means of a genitive phrase (of pianos), and any modification of it would be by means of an adjective, e.g.

The noisy playing of pianos...


and not an adverb,

*The noisily playing of pianos...


3. Regarding the question of tense-usage, no special conditions or restrictions apply to gerunds of either kind. Thus, provided e.g. a present perfect is deemed acceptable in a sentence according to all of the normal criteria (time frame, etc.), it makes no difference whether the subject of the sentence is a gerund or any other noun or noun-like item.

4. Regarding the appropriate choice between simple gerund construction and participial noun construction, it will be made essentially on the basis of the existence or otherwise of a specific subject. Where an action is conceived of as being performed by a particular individual, we will naturally employ a simple gerund (as in [1]) , since only then can a subject be specified. When, however, as in [2], it is understood as applying generally to everyone, then a participial noun construction is the norm.


** N.B. Colloquially, however, objective-case pronouns and common-case nouns tend to serve here, giving e.g.

Do you mind me/Peter playing the piano?

instead of ...my/Peter's...
 
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