and me - and I

[Julie17]

Is the expression 'Peter and me' still informal or standard English?

 

[Barb_D]

Is the expression 'Peter and me' still informal or standard English?

It is completely formal and standard when you are the objects in the sentence.

She gave apples to Peter and me.
She glared at Peter and me.
It was designed by Peter and me.
This is a picture of Peter and me.

It is NOT standard when you are the grammatical subject of the sentence: *Peter and me went to the movies -- Don't use this!

 

[Julie17]

Thank you, that's really helpful.

 

[Julie17]

What about British English, native speakers?

 

[bhaisahab]

What about British English, native speakers?

Same

 

[nesyan]

It was designed by Peter and me.


what if we say
It was designed by Peter and I

is it considered grammatically incorrect ?
because I refers to a subject who did an action while it refers to an object which received the action ?

 

[Barb_D]

It would be grammatically incorrect.

A grammatical subject may be the recipient of an action.
A grammatical object may be the "doer" of that action.

The grammatical object needs to take the object form of the pronoun.

Would you say "It was designed by I"?

 

[5jj]

what if we say
It was designed by Peter and I

is it considered grammatically incorrect ? Yes

You would never say "It was designed by I", so it is not correct to say, "It was designed by Peter and I". Look again at Barb's post #2.

In passive constructions, the do-er of the action follows the preposition 'by'. The person he/she/it may be doing the action, but the word him/her/it is grammatically the object of the preposition.

 

[nesyan]

I was taught that the subject is the doer of an action and the object is the one who receives
the action from the subject

I water the flowers every day

I is the subject
water is a verb
flowers are the objects

am I correct here ?

Would you say "It was designed by I"?

LOL, it sounds really funny
no I would say it was designed by me

I just was asking for the answer which may help *I* understand well
I'm kidding

 

[Barb_D]

I was taught that the subject is the doer of an action and the object is the one who receives
the action from the subject
-- This is too simplistic. It's only true if the sentence is written in the active voice.

I water the flowers every day

I is the subject
water is a verb
flowers are the objects

am I correct here ?

Yes, but that sentence is written in the active voice.

The flowers are watered (by me) every day.

Grammatical SUBJECT of the verb.

Try to forget what you were taught above. Focus on what is the grammatical subject, now who or what is "doing something" and on the grammatical object when making your pronoun choice.

 

[5jj]

I was taught that the subject is the doer of an action and the object is the one who receives
the action from the subject

I water the flowers every day

I is the subject
water is a verb
flowers are the objects

am I correct here ?

Yes, but don't confuse grammar and life.

1. Luke gave Emma a book
2. Emma was given a book (by Luke)
3. A book was given to Emma (by Luke)

In the real-life situation. Luke is the do-er in all three sentences, the book is the 'done', and Emma is the receiver. However, in terms of grammar, the subject of the verb is Luke in #1, Emma in #2 and a book in #3. If Luke describes this situation, he will use I in #1 and me in #2 and #3. The situation does not change, but the way of looking at it and the grammar do change.

 

[nesyan]

Thank you very much guys
now I can say I've understood what you both explain it well
I'm very grateful

 

[Julie17]

Actually Michael Swan says that it's 'divides usage'. So there must be a few who actually use this structure.

 

[riquecohen]

Actually Michael Swan says that it's 'divides usage'. So there must be a few who actually use this structure.

Your question has been answered by several highly respected professionals and you still doubt their responses.
Surely there are a few who use this (incorrect) structure, This is not, however, a case of "divided usage"; it's just bad grammar. BTW, when you refer to Swan,you should always cite the title of the entry. I doubt that this is what Swan was referring to.

 

[Julie17]

Have a look at his "Practical English Usage", Oxford 2005, p. 291

 

[5jj]

Have a look at his "Practical English Usage", Oxford 2005, p. 291

This is one of the rare occasions when Swan is not correct.

It is one thing to say that this, and other "so-called 'mistakes' have been normal in standard English for centuries", he goes too far when he then says that they "are not wrong at all".

Most authorities agree with Barb: "It is NOT standard when you are the grammatical subject
of the sentence: *Peter and me went to the movies -- Don't use this!"

People who use it are frequently considered less educated than those who don't, and you may lose marks in an examination if you use it. The situation may well change in the next twenty years - its use is spreading - but we are not there yet.

 

[Julie17]

OK, I suppose I'll have to accept that then - and try to keep it in mind! ;-)