[Grammar] As if you didn't know

[kadioguy]

Is "As if you didn't know" here in the indicative mood or in the subjunctive mood?
How can I work it out?

(Quoted from Woe is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English)

 

[kadioguy]

As the past indicative and subjunctive forms are identical for all verbs except BE (1st and 3rd person singular), it doesn't really matter.

Thank you, but the past indicative and subjunctive forms may suggest different meanings. I mean, does the author, who writes "As if you didn't know", think the readers may know (the subjunctive mood) or may not know (the past indicative mood)? This confuses me, because I don't know what she really means.

 

[emsr2d2]

"As if you didn't know" means "You know (and I know that you know)". If it helps, think about it as a short form of "Don't act as if you didn't know (because you definitely do know)".

 

[Raymott]

"As if you didn't know" means "You know (and I know that you know)".

And that makes it subjunctive.
In other words, it doesn't mean "You knew (and I knew that you knew)", which is the indicative past.
"As if you don't know" is the indicative present.

 

[kadioguy]

In other words, it doesn't mean "You knew (and I knew that you knew)", which is the indicative past.

Do you want to mean "... it doesn't mean "You didn't know (and I knew that you didn't know)", which is the indicative past"?

 

[Raymott]

No. I was basing my definitions on emsr2d2's example.

Out of interest, why do you think I meant the negation of what I said, while the other two versions are positive. Changing a sentence from subjunctive to indicative, or from present to past, doesn't entail negating it.

 

[kadioguy]

No. I was basing my definitions on emsr2d2's example.

Out of interest, why do you think I meant the negation of what I said, while the other two versions are positive. Changing a sentence from subjunctive to indicative, or from present to past, doesn't entail negating it.

Because the original sentence is "As if you didn't know". If this was the indicative past (as you said in post #5), then the writer would think the readers did not know, and she knew this. This is how I understand it. The same as what I said in post #3.

Thank you, but the past indicative and subjunctive forms may suggest different meanings. I mean, does the author, who writes "As if you didn't know", think the readers may know (the subjunctive mood) or may not know (the past indicative mood)? This confuses me, because I don't know what she really means.

 

[emsr2d2]

I can't think of any context in which the standalone sentence "As if you didn't know!" means anything other than "Of course you know! [Don't pretend that you don't know!]"

John: I hear you had a lot of fun last night!
Sarah: I don't know what you're on about.
John: Oh, come on. Everyone at the office is talking about it.
Sarah: No, really, I'm baffled.
John: So you didn't end up at a nightclub, drunk, and took some random guy home?
Sarah: Oh. That.
John: Yes, that. As if you didn't know!

Tom: I'm really angry. Harold got a pay rise and I didn't.
Sally: Really?
Tom: Yes, really. It's completely unfair. I work just as hard as him.
Sally: Well, I didn't know he'd got a pay rise.
Tom: Nonsense. As if you didn't know! You work in the pay department!

 

[kadioguy]

Raymott did not say that.

Isn't the following used to explain "As if you didn't know"?

In other words, it doesn't mean "You knew (and I knew that you knew)", which is the indicative past.

 

[emsr2d2]

I think you're misunderstanding Raymott's point (or I am!) I believe he was pointing out that it doesn't mean "You knew (and I knew that you knew)" but it means "You know (and I know that you know)". The difference is in the tense, not the meaning.

 

[Raymott]

I think you're misunderstanding Raymott's point (or I am!)

Perhaps you are, ems! I'll try to clarify.

You say above: "I can't think of any context in which the standalone sentence "As if you didn't know!" means anything other than "Of course you know! [Don't pretend that you don't know!]"

I was saying that "As if you didn't know!" can mean "You knew (and I knew that you knew)", if relating to the past, in the indicative, rather than your sentence which is the subjunctive mood - even though they are the same sentence.

A: Yesterday, I told Mike that I didn't know.
B: As if you didn't know! (You knew and I knew that you knew)(ie. "As if you hadn't known!" - but I think this is unnatural.)
(Surely this is possible)

OK, so this is the same sentence, ("As if you didn't know!") but it's past tense and indicative as I have used it. It uses "didn't" to mean "didn't. In your sentence, "didn't" is used to mean "don't", and is subjunctive, or "past tense form" as some would call it.

 

[emsr2d2]

OK, thanks. But do we agree that the person who says it does not believe that the other person doesn't/didn't know whatever it is/was? ;-)

 

[Raymott]

In fact in your discussion between Tom and Sally, it means "As if you hadn't known". It doesn't mean "As if you don't know". In your first discussion, it seems to mean "As if you don't know".

Yes, we agree on what you wrote above. And it seems that now we agree that "As if you didn't know" can mean "You knew (and I knew that you knew)" as well as "You know (and I know that you know)".

 

[PaulMatthews]

Is "As if you didn't know" here in the indicative mood or in the subjunctive mood?
How can I work it out?

(Quoted from Woe is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English)

I don't follow you. What makes you think that your example could be a subjunctive clause, bearing in mind that the subjunctive is a clause type headed by a plain (infinitive) form verb, as in "I demand that he be told immediately"?

 

[kadioguy]

I don't follow you. What makes you think that your example could be a subjunctive clause, bearing in mind that the subjunctive is a clause type headed by a plain (infinitive) form verb, as in "I demand that he be told immediately"?

I can understand your confusion. As for the subjunctive, I have seen two different versions:

(1)
Older English had subjunctives, but in modern English they have mostly been replaced by uses of should, would and other modal verbs, by special uses of past tenses, and by ordinary verb forms. English only has a few subjunctive forms left: third-person singular present verbs without -(e)s, (e.g. she see, he have) and special forms of be (e.g. I be, he were). Except for I/he/she/it were after if, they are not very common.

(Quoted from Practical English Usage 3rd. "567")

(2)
The past subjunctive has the same form as the past simple tense except in the case of the verb be. Traditionally, the past subjunctive form of be is were for all persons, including the first and third person singular. However, today I/he/she/it was is more common while were is mainly used in formal styles and in the set phrase if I were you.

I'd rather your boyfriend stopped calling you in the middle of the night. (Your boyfriend keeps calling you.)

He looks as if he knew the answer. (He gives the impression that he knows the answer, but he probably doesn't.)

(Quoted from https://www.grammaring.com/past-subjunctive)
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I think your opinion fits (1), whereas mine in post #1 fits (2).

 

[PaulMatthews]

I can understand your confusion

.
I don't have any confusion.

As for the subjunctive, I have seen two different versions:

(1)
Older English had subjunctives, but in modern English they have mostly been replaced by uses of should, would and other modal verbs, by special uses of past tenses, and by ordinary verb forms. English only has a few subjunctive forms left: third-person singular present verbs without -(e)s, (e.g. she see, he have) and special forms of be (e.g. I be, he were). Except for I/he/she/it were after if, they are not very common.

(Quoted from Practical English Usage 3rd. "567").

The subjunctive mandative is widely used in AmE", while the should mandative is more common in BrE. The subjunctive construction is distinct from a present tense only with the verb "be" or a 3rd person singular subject.

(2)
The past subjunctive has the same form as the past simple tense except in the case of the verb be. Traditionally, the past subjunctive form of be is were for all persons, including the first and third person singular. However, today I/he/she/it was is more common while were is mainly used in formal styles and in the set phrase if I were you.

I'd rather your boyfriend stopped calling you in the middle of the night. (Your boyfriend keeps calling you.)

He looks as if he knew the answer. (He gives the impression that he knows the answer, but he probably doesn't.)

(Quoted from https://www.grammaring.com/past-subjunctive)

Those examples have nothing to do with the subjunctive. The verbs "stopped" and "knew" are modal preterites. They are past tense forms, hence 'preterite', but the meaning has to do with modality rather than past time, hence the 'modal' component of the term.

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I think your opinion fits (1), whereas mine in post #1 fits (2).

I wouldn't agree with that. In your example, in full e.g., "You act as if you didn't know", "didn't" is a modal preterite where the past tense "didn't" has to do with modality, not past time. There's no reason to analyse it any differently to the lexical verbs "stopped" and "knew" in your other examples.

 

[kadioguy]

.
I don't have any confusion.

The subjunctive mandative is widely used in AmE", while the should mandative is more common in BrE. The subjunctive construction is distinct from a present tense only with the verb "be" or a 3rd person singular subject.
------
Those examples have nothing to do with the subjunctive. The verbs "stopped" and "knew" are modal preterites. They are past tense forms, hence 'preterite', but the meaning has to do with modality rather than past time, hence the 'modal' component of the term.

---------

I wouldn't agree with that. In your example, in full e.g., "You act as if you didn't know", "didn't" is a modal preterite where the past tense "didn't" has to do with modality, not past time. There's no reason to analyse it any differently to the lexical verbs "stopped" and "knew" in your other examples.

Thank you for your reply. Obviously, you don't agree with the contents in https://www.grammaring.com/past-subjunctive.

As a learner, I don't have a preference for either of them. I think they just use different definitions to explain the same thing.

Also, as you can see, here are a grammarian and a member supporting (2).

As the past indicative and subjunctive forms are identical for all verbs except BE (1st and 3rd person singular), it doesn't really matter.

And that makes it subjunctive.

I called it "subjunctive", just because that was an easy way to describe this kind of sentence.

 

[Raymott]

I called it subjunctive because in the grammar I learned it is called subjunctive.
It's contrary to fact, and uses the past tense form. There may be other terms for this construction in other systems of English grammar.

Also, in many European languages, these sentences would be written using their dedicated subjunctive forms. This helps at least some learners to understand why we use the past tense form when they would expect the present tense.

"You act as if you didn't know."
"Actúas como si no supieras. (Spanish imperfect subjunctive)
"Ti comporti come se non lo sapessi." (Italian imperfect subjunctive).

Perhaps it's more correct to explain that the English form is "the equivalent of a subjunctive", which European students would understand immediately, rather than calling it a "modal preterite" which makes sense only to those specialists in English grammar who have learnt to call it this.

 

[Raymott]

I'm not saying that Paul is wrong either, and have often found his participation useful.
I take a pragmatic view of this matter. This is basically an EFL site, and not an advanced grammar site. I like to write something that the learner is able to understand, and which is backed up my most good EFL websites.

 

[Raymott]

Yes, though there's certainly a place for that once the OP has their answer. Some discussion among the teachers and other responders is certainly useful and enjoyable.