At the opticians

[Rachel Adams]

Right.



That's right. I was not talking about going there at all, whether as a patient or not. I was just talking about how to refer to places that exist in a typical town.

I see. Thank you. Just like modals this use of articles is not explained very well in books. Could you please tell me if these sentences are possible too?
1. 'She has to stay at hospital.'
2. 'She has to stay at a hospital.'
3. 'She has to stay at the hospital.'(Not as a patient)

1. 'She is in a hospital.'
2. 'She is in hospital.'
3. 'She is in the hospital.' (Not as a patient)

 

[jutfrank]

Just like modals this use of articles is not explained very well in books.

Yes, I agree.

Could you please tell me if these sentences are possible too?

She has to stay in hospital.
She has to stay in the hospital. (US)

These both mean that she will treated as a patient. Don't ask me why US speakers like to use a definite article there. I don't recommend it.

She has to stay at the hospital.

This means she's not going to be a patient. She will stay there for some other reason.

 

[GoesStation]

She has to stay in hospital.
She has to stay in the hospital. (US)

These both mean that she will treated as a patient. Don't ask me why US speakers like to use a definite article there. I don't recommend it.

The article is required in American English. I think some Americans would have trouble understanding the sentence without it.

In hospital is, for those of us who notice such things, an infallible marker of British English. It stands out because it looks so odd to us. Nobody has to stay in clinic or in sick bay. (Actually, for the latter they do. Only in sick bay is possible. In clinic isn't. I have no idea why.)

 

[jutfrank]

In hospital is, for those of us who notice such things, an infallible marker of British English

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the use of an article is a marker of American English. That's why the lack of one sounds odd only to Americans. (I'm not sure about Canadians.)

Besides, it breaks the 'rules'. You wouldn't say an inmate is 'in the prison' or that worshippers 'go to the church'.

 

[Rachel Adams]

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the use of an article is a marker of American English. That's why the lack of one sounds odd only to Americans. (I'm not sure about Canadians.)

Besides, it breaks the 'rules'. You wouldn't say an inmate is 'in the prison' or that worshippers 'go to the church'.

Yes, BrE is easier to learn. You didn't say anything about the other sentences. They are not correct. Right?

 

[GoesStation]

Besides, it breaks the 'rules'. You wouldn't say an inmate is 'in the prison' or that worshippers 'go to the church'.

Sadly, the rules don't seem to cover all cases. Or perhaps I'm wrong (a shocking concept, granted — but bear with me). Is it possible in British English to say that someone is in clinic? I'm trying to think of other in-between settings. How about in chapel? I'm not sure that one's entirely impossible in American English. I don't intersect with contexts where it would come up.

During a couple of delightful sojourns at Oxbridge colleges, I learned that when you're in the college dining establishment you're in hall, which was initially incomprehensible to me. But in the hall wouldn't work any better, so I tend to think that particular usage is just one of the delightful quirks that make attaining (or getting a glimpse of) the pinnacle of British academic life worthwhile.

 

[jutfrank]

Is it possible in British English to say that someone is in clinic?

I'm not sure about that. I don't think I've heard it but that's not surprising. I could imagine that a professional might say it, though. Suffice to say, it would be understood as following the rule if someone were to say it. Anyway, I don't think it quite fits the exact use that I'm thinking of, where the noun represents a social institution. I don't think clinics count as institutions in the same way as hospitals.

I'm trying to think of other in-between settings. How about in chapel? I'm not sure that one's entirely impossible in American English.

I don't think that one counts, either. At least, not in the way in church counts.

During a couple of delightful sojourns at Oxbridge colleges, I learned that when you're in the college dining establishment you're in hall, which was initially incomprehensible to me.

Right. I've not heard that but it makes sense.

I'm thinking of this whole thing pedagogically, remember. My aim is to advise RachelAdams in the best way I can, knowing what I know about her as a learner.

 

[Rachel Adams]

I'm not sure about that. I don't think I've heard it but that's not surprising. I could imagine that a professional might say it, though. Anyway, it would be understood as following the rule if someone were to say it. Anyway, I don't think it quite fits the exact use that I'm thinking of, where the noun represents a social institution. I don't think clinics counts.



I don't think that one counts, either. At least, not in the way in church counts.



Right. I've not heard that but it makes sense.

I'm thinking of this whole thing pedagogically, remember. My aim is to advise RachelAdams in the best way I can, knowing what I know about her as a learner.

I really appreciate your help.

 

[probus]

Minor factual correction. At least here in Canada optometrists are the professionals who assess visual acuity and prescribe corrective lenses. Opticians do not test vision. They are the ones who actually fill the prescription and fit the glasses to their wearer. I think the situation is the same in the USA but may vary in other countries.

 

[emsr2d2]

Minor factual correction. At least here in Canada optometrists are the professionals who assess visual acuity and prescribe corrective lenses. Opticians do not test vision. They are the ones who actually fill the prescription and fit the glasses to their wearer. I think the situation is the same in the USA but may vary in other countries.

That's the same in the UK but, in all honesty, most people don't know the difference.

 

[jutfrank]

Minor factual correction. At least here in Canada optometrists are the professionals who assess visual acuity and prescribe corrective lenses. Opticians do not test vision. They are the ones who actually fill the prescription and fit the glasses to their wearer. I think the situation is the same in the USA but may vary in other countries.

What I'd like to know, probus, is whether Canadians go to hospital or go to the hospital? Are they in hospital or in the hospital? Does Canadian English include the definite article? Is it a North American feature or just a US one?

 

[Rachel Adams]

My summary to remember how articles are used here. In BrE. The sentences in bold are most likely wrong because no one has said anything about them.
1. 'She has to stay in hospital'. (As a patient)
2. 'She has to stay in the hospital.' (As a patient AmE)
3. 'She has to stay in a hospital.' (Not a patient)
4. 'She is at hospital.' (Wrong)
5. 'She is at a hospital.' (Not a patient)
6. 'She is at the hospital.' (Not a patient)

7. 'She has to stay at hospital.'
8. 'She has to stay at a hospital.'
9. 'She has to stay at the hospital.'(Not as a patient)

10. 'She is in a hospital.'
11. 'She is in hospital.' (As a patient)
12. 'She is in the hospital.' (As a patient AmE)

According to Swan
In/at school, college, university as a student. She studies at/in school. He studies at/in college. They study at/in university.

With articles. She works in/at a college. She works in/at a university. She works in/at a school. (This wasn't written in Swan) Now I am wondering whether she works at/in school/college/university is also correct.

 

[jutfrank]

The first bold sentence is wrong but the second is grammatical.

Your numbering system didn't encourage me to reply sooner.

Similarly, post #32 has three different number 1s!. Please keep trying to keep your posts presented as best you can.

 

[Rachel Adams]

The first bold sentence is wrong but the second is grammatical.

Your numbering system didn't encourage me to reply sooner.

Similarly, post #32 has three different number 1s!. Please keep trying to keep your posts presented as best you can.

Edited. I wanted to add them as A 1, 2, 3... and B 1, 2, 3.. If you asnwered my questions I would be again very grateful.