Except and except for

[Rachel Adams]

Could you please explain this rule about "except" and "except for"? It isn't mentioned in my books.

"They are almost equivalent when used as a preposition with a noun phrase. As a rule of thumb, use “except” when you are talking about a group of things, and want to single out part of this group, and use “except for” when describing a state and something that invalidates that state."

 

[Tdol]

Where did you get the rule?

 

[Rachel Adams]

Where did you get the rule?

Here:

What is the difference between 'except' and 'except for' in terms of their usage?

Answer (1 of 23): EXCEPT FOR means “with the exception of” or “excluding.” * We all ate meat except for Susan. EXCEPT THAT means “except for the fact that” or “apart from the fact that.” * Your house is nice, except that it's a bit far from the station. You can often omit FOR or THAT. But rem...

www.quora.com

Another rule:
"except for" is used when what is excluded is different from what is included:

‘Except’ or ‘Except for’?

LI CHIU-MING, HSI CHING-HUA; ‘Except’ or ‘Except for’?, ELT Journal, Volume XXXV, Issue 3, 1 April 1981, Pages 260–263, https://doi.org/10.1093/elt/XXXV.3.

academic.oup.com

None of them is mentioned in my textbooks.

 

[Tarheel]

It seems like good advice (on Quora).

 

[Rachel Adams]

It seems like good advice (on Quora).

I don't understand what they mean by "except for" is used when what is excluded is different from what is included."

For example, "Except for Michael everyone went to the party." Is "for" optional here? Or is it a different situation?

 

[Rover_KE]

"Except for Michael everyone went to the party." Is "for" optional here? No.

Here's another rule of thumb: when 'except' comes first, it needs 'for', but when it comes last, 'for' is optional.

Except for Michael everyone went to the party.
Everyone went to the party except (for) Michael.

 

[Rachel Adams]

"Except for Michael everyone went to the party." Is "for" optional here? Yes."

Sorry, but I don't understand why you said "yes". If it's not optional there.

 

[Tarheel]

I would definitely use "for" there. (It seems that Rover disagreed with himself.)

 

[Rachel Adams]

I would definitely use "for" there. (It seems that Rover disagreed with himself.)

But what does this mean? "Another rule:
"except for" is used when what is excluded is different from what is included."
Do these examples illustrate this use?
1. For example, "You can use all these books except for my sister's ones."

2. "You can use any room in the house, except for the small one upstairs.

 

[Rover_KE]

"Except for Michael everyone went to the party." Is "for" optional here? Yes."

Sorry, but I don't understand why you said "yes". If it's not optional there.

My mistake. I meant 'No'. I've edited it.

 

[Tarheel]

But what does this mean? "Another rule:
"except for" is used when what is excluded is different from what is included."
Do these examples illustrate this use?
1. For example, "You can use all these books except for my sister's ones."

2. "You can use any room in the house, except for the small one upstairs.

1. Say: "except for my sister's."
2. Say: "any room in the house except for the small one upstairs."

 

[Rachel Adams]

1. Say: "except for my sister's."
2. Say: "any room in the house except for the small one upstairs."

But is this according to this rule:
"except for" is used when what is excluded is different from what is included?

 

[Tarheel]

Well, I suppose that rule is helpful. (I hope so.) In any case, the second "for" is optional.

 

[Rachel Adams]

Well, I suppose that rule is helpful. (I hope so.) In any case, the second "for" is optional.

Then it's not according to that rule which says it's not optional.

 

[emsr2d2]

The following four sentences below are all grammatically correct in BrE.

You can use all these books, except my sister's.
You can use all these books, except for my sister's.
You can use any room in the house, except the small one upstairs.
You can use any room in the house, except for the small one upstairs.

 

[Rachel Adams]

The following four sentences below are all grammatically correct in BrE.

You can use all these books, except my sister's.
You can use all these books, except for my sister's.
You can use any room in the house, except the small one upstairs.
You can use any room in the house, except for the small one upstairs.

What rule is it based on? only part of the article says
"except for" is used when what is excluded is different from what is included" the rest of the article isn't available. But it also says this rule doesn't always work. Are these examples based on it?

I asked a similar question on another forum too.

 

[5jj]

Please

I asked a similar question on another forum too.

Here's a link to that other forum. That saves us the trouble of responding here.