[General] In or on to describe a situation

[Scarlett]

Hello
Recently, I am learning how to use prepositions to describe a situation or condition.
In most of the examples in dictionaries, “in” is used. However, there are some examples using “on” as well.
I am confused and do not understand the concept or rule for properly using both “in” and “on”. May someone share your experience or idea?
Please see below examples if you need:

1a. The economy is in trouble.
1b. The economy is on upswing.

2a. The factory was destroyed in a fire started by arsonists.
2b. The car is on fire.

3a. You are in no condition (= too ill/sick, etc.) to go anywhere.
3b. You must on no condition tell them what happened.

Thank you

 

[emsr2d2]

Hello.
Recently, I [STRIKE]am[/STRIKE] have been learning how to use prepositions to describe a situation or condition. In most of the examples in dictionaries, “in” is used. However, there are some examples using “on”. [STRIKE]as well.[/STRIKE] They don't use it as well, they use it instead.

I am confused and do not understand the concept or rule for [STRIKE]properly[/STRIKE] using both “in” and “on”. [STRIKE]May[/STRIKE] Can/Could someone share [STRIKE]your[/STRIKE] their [STRIKE]experience or idea[/STRIKE] opinion?
Please see [STRIKE]below[/STRIKE] the examples below: [STRIKE]if you need:[/STRIKE]

1a. The economy is in trouble. :tick: Here, "in trouble" is a set phrase. Just learn it.
1b. The economy is on an upswing. :tick: with my addition.

2a. The factory was destroyed in a fire started by arsonists. :tick: We say that something was destroyed "in" or "by" something else.
2b. The car is on fire. :tick: Here, "on fire" is a set phrase. Just learn it.

3a. You are in no condition (= too ill/sick, etc.) to go anywhere. :tick: We say that something is "in + adjective + condition".
3b. You must, on no condition, tell them what happened. :tick: Here, "no" is similar to a number. There are zero conditions under which you can tell them what happened.

Thank you. In future, there is no need to say "Thank you" in any post. We have a "Thank" button for that.

Welcome to the forum. :hi:

Note my corrections and comments above. If it makes you feel any better, the use of prepositions is one of the hardest things to master in English.

 

[jutfrank]

I am learning how to use prepositions to describe a situation or condition.

I think there are two things wrong with this approach:

1) The use you're trying to learn is far too general and vague.
2) You shouldn't look for uses of prepositions. You need to focus on their different meanings.

Feel free to ask us about the differences in meaning of the preposition phrases in each of the sentence pairs in post #1.

 

[TheParser]

I am confused and do not understand the concept or rule for properly using both “in” and “on”.

NOT A TEACHER

Scarlett, here is some advice from two brothers who wrote many years ago about the use of prepositions: "[G]ood reading with the idiomatic eye open is essential." By "idiomatic," they meant that "for some reason," speakers have decided to use one preposition instead of another.

Here in the United States, for example, people usually say "I live on Elm Street" while people in some other English-speaking nations say "I live in Elm Street."
I live in California where people say "stand in line." I have heard, however, that in New York state, people say "stand on line."

Source: H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, The King's English (1906), page 170.

 

[jutfrank]

they meant that "for some reason," speakers have decided to use one preposition instead of another.

A penetrative and illuminating observation there from the Fowler brothers. I'll have to remember that one.

 

[Scarlett]

Welcome to the forum. :hi:

Note my corrections and comments above. If it makes you feel any better, the use of prepositions is one of the hardest things to master in English.

Hi emsr2d2
Nice to meet you:-D

What you wrote definitely makes me feel better.
May I rise further questions?
Here come the questions in blue:

1a. The economy is in trouble. Here, "in trouble" is a set phrase. Just learn it.
How about "in love", "in danger"? Are they set phrases? These 3 set are the examples of "in" in dictionaries, so I thought preposition usage was the only reason to use "in" for describing situation.
1b. The economy is on an upswing. with my addition.
Why isn't "in" to be used in this sentence? Is it because that "upswing" has a movement? Is there any meaning changing if I use "in"?

2a. The factory was destroyed in a fire started by arsonists. We say that something was destroyed "in" or "by" something else.
I understand that "was destroyed "by" something" but do not understand that why "by" can be replaced by "in" instead of "on".
2b. The car is on fire. Here, "on fire" is a set phrase. Just learn it.
Ok. Is this set phrase "on fire" describing the progress of burning? I mean, "on fire" sounds like part of the car, especially the bottom part, is burning. And, "in fire" sounds like the whole car is burning.

3a. You are in no condition (= too ill/sick, etc.) to go anywhere. We say that something is "in + adjective + condition".
3b. You must, on no condition, tell them what happened. Here, "no" is similar to a number. There are zero conditions under which you can tell them what happened.
I know that "on no condition" is an idiom which expresses not in any situation that is allowed to do something. Accordingly, "on" should be used in sentence 3a since both 3a and 3b are talking about zero condition/s. This confuses me. Have I overlooked any point?

 

[Scarlett]

I think there are two things wrong with this approach:

1) The use you're trying to learn is far too general and vague.
2) You shouldn't look for uses of prepositions. You need to focus on their different meanings.

Feel free to ask us about the differences in meaning of the preposition phrases in each of the sentence pairs in post #1.

Hi jutfrank
Nice to meet you:-D

Oh, regarding the meaning, I thought the sentences were talking about similar situation to its pair. That was why I used them to ask for help. However, it seems that I have misunderstood the meaning of preposition phrases. May you give me some interpretation?
Further, are preposition phrase and preposition in different concept? Is my learning direction wrong?

 

[Scarlett]

NOT A TEACHER

Scarlett, here is some advice from two brothers who wrote many years ago about the use of prepositions: "[G]ood reading with the idiomatic eye open is essential." By "idiomatic," they meant that "for some reason," speakers have decided to use one preposition instead of another.

Here in the United States, for example, people usually say "I live on Elm Street" while people in some other English-speaking nations say "I live in Elm Street."
I live in California where people say "stand in line." I have heard, however, that in New York state, people say "stand on line."

Source: H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, The King's English (1906), page 170.

Hi TheParser
Nice to meet you:-D

You have brought me some good advice:-D

I agree that if I want to learn the language well I need to understand the culture first. Normally, I watch english movies and dramas to learn it.
However, sometimes I got problem because of the situation you mentioned in the last part of your comment, people in different district have their own usage. I found the usage in movie was different from dictionary. This kind of case is quite confusing to ESL learner.:lol:
But then, I have discovered english forums like usingenglish. There are many BE and AE native speakers sharing their opinions. Indeed, this is very helpful.

 

[jutfrank]

Further, are preposition phrase and preposition in different concept? Is my learning direction wrong?

I mean that since prepositions have basic meanings, you could start from the basics by exploring these meanings. Alternatively, you could simply learn the meaning and use of preposition phrases as wholes, and then generalise from specifics if need be. Let's take each of your examples at a time:

1) in [description] condition

Here, condition has the sense of a state of being a certain way:

That car is in an excellent condition.
My hair is in really bad condition.
You're hardly in the right condition to drive.

2) on [determiner] condition

Here, condition has the sense of conditionality:

There are two conditions on which that depends.
I'll tell you on one condition.
On no condition should you open the unit.

 

[emsr2d2]

What you wrote definitely makes me feel better. May I [STRIKE]rise[/STRIKE] ask further questions? [STRIKE]Here come[/STRIKE] The questions are in blue below:

1a. The economy is in trouble. Here, "in trouble" is a set phrase. Just learn it.
How about "in love", "in danger"? Are they set phrases? These 3 set are the examples of "in" in dictionaries, so I thought preposition usage was the only reason to use "in" for describing situation.
Those are also set phrases as long as you're aiming for their definition as an idiom. It's possible to use other prepositions with those nouns, though. Context is everything.

1b. The economy is on an upswing. with my addition.
Why isn't "in" to be used in this sentence? Is it because that "upswing" has a movement? Is there any meaning changing if I use "in"?
To a point, yes. We say that something is "on an upward/downward/sideways trajectory". However, bear in mind that we say that something moves "in an upward/downward/sideways direction".

2a. The factory was destroyed in a fire started by arsonists. We say that something was destroyed "in" or "by" something else.
I understand that "was destroyed "by" something" but do not understand [STRIKE]that[/STRIKE] why "by" can be replaced by "in" instead of "on".
The use of the article and the extra information at the end of the sentence are what dictate the preposition. You can say "The factory was destroyed by fire" or "The factory was destroyed in a fire", but you can't add "started by arsonists" to the former.

2b. The car is on fire. Here, "on fire" is a set phrase. Just learn it.
Ok. Is this set phrase "on fire" describing the progress of burning? I mean, "on fire" sounds like part of the car, especially the bottom part, is burning. And, "in fire" sounds like the whole car is burning.
I can't work out why you think that's the case. Anything that is ablaze is on fire. A piece of paper can be on fire. A whole house can be on fire.

My responses are above in red. Jutfrank has given you a thorough answer to your question about "condition".