[Grammar] personal construction in the passive

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angelene001

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I've got a problem with changing this sentence into passive :
We hope they will send us an invitation

Can I change it into personal construction?
They are hoped to send us an invitation.

We is a problem here. It isn't hoped in general by people. It is a quite specific personal hope because "We hope".

I know I can say:
We hope to be sent an invitation
And probably:
We hope taht an invitation will be sent to us.

But what about the personal construction?
 

5jj

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If the 'we' is important, then leave it in the active.
 

Rover_KE

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Why do you want to change a perfectly good sentence into a contrived passive form?

Rover
 

Raymott

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I've got a problem with changing this sentence into passive :
We hope they will send us an invitation

Can I change it into personal construction?
They are hoped to send us an invitation.

We is a problem here. It isn't hoped in general by people. It is a quite specific personal hope because "We hope".

I know I can say:
We hope to be sent an invitation
And probably:
We hope taht an invitation will be sent to us.

But what about the personal construction?
"It is hoped by us that an invitation will be sent to us by them."
It's very silly - don't use it.
 

angelene001

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Why do you want to change a perfectly good sentence into a contrived passive form?

Rover

I have to change it into some passive form because it's an exercise.
The key to the grammar book says:
We hope to be sent an invitation

I'm just wondering about other acceptable possibilities.
 

angelene001

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"It is hoped by us that an invitation will be sent to us by them."
It's very silly - don't use it.

Can hope be used in personal construction in the passive?
People hope that the president will help the poor. ---> The president is hoped to help the poor.
 

5jj

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Can hope be used in personal construction in the passive?
People hope that the president will help the poor. ---> The president is hoped to help the poor.
No. It is hoped that the president will help the poor.
 

angelene001

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No. It is hoped that the president will help the poor.

Thank you :)
But is it just unnatural and silly or is it a grammatical mistake?

So not all of the reporting verbs can be used in both personal and impersonal constructions.

The author of this is wrong (Look at the sentence number 16 in the key):
http://www.eoioviedo.org/anacarmen/passive/Passive.pdf


Of course, I know that many of the information on the Internet is wrong :)
 

Raymott

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Thank you :)
But is it just unnatural and silly or is it a grammatical mistake?

So not all of the reporting verbs can be used in both personal and impersonal constructions.

The author of this is wrong (Look at the sentence number 16 in the key):
http://www.eoioviedo.org/anacarmen/passive/Passive.pdf


Of course, I know that many of the information on the Internet is wrong :)
You should only trust pages that seem authoritative, for example university websites. This pdf is written by Ana Carmen. Who is Ana Carmen and what are her qualifications? No one knows because she seems to be a private freelancer who has put up a page with some grammar rules on it. She says nothing about herself.
I'd call her sentences starting "People believe ... " unnatural, as in "People believe that thousands of birds died."

This is the sort of site you should be looking for: Welcome to the Purdue University Online Writing Lab (OWL)
 

angelene001

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You should only trust pages that seem authoritative, for example university websites. This pdf is written by Ana Carmen. Who is Ana Carmen and what are her qualifications? No one knows because she seems to be a private freelancer who has put up a page with some grammar rules on it. She says nothing about herself.
I'd call her sentences starting "People believe ... " unnatural, as in "People believe that thousands of birds died."

This is the sort of site you should be looking for: Welcome to the Purdue University Online Writing Lab (OWL)

But sentences starting "People believe ..." are common in grammar books.
You have to change such a sentence into personal construction and the right answer is "He is believed to win" or "The missing jewellery is believed to have been found"

As a learner I have no idea what sounds unnatural and what doesn't.

But from a purely grammatical point of view, "He is believed to win" or "He is hoped to win" is correct, isn't it?
It probably sounds silly, nobody uses such sentences but theoretically it's ok. Right?
 

Raymott

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But sentences starting "People believe ..." are common in grammar books.
People believe all kinds of things. But "People believe thousands of birds died" is unnatural, because we can't be talking about people in general. It means some specific people, and you need at least "The people believe ..." or "Some people believe ..."

You have to change such a sentence into personal construction and the right answer is "He is believed to win" or "The missing jewellery is believed to have been found"

As a learner I have no idea what sounds unnatural and what doesn't.

But from a purely grammatical point of view, "He is believed to win" or "He is hoped to win" is correct, isn't it?
It probably sounds silly, nobody uses such sentences but theoretically it's ok. Right?
"He is believed to win" is wrong, as is "He is hoped to win." Grammatically wrong.
 

emsr2d2

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But sentences starting "People believe ..." are common in grammar books.
You have to change such a sentence into personal construction and the right answer is "He is believed to win" or "The missing jewellery is believed to have been found"

As a learner I have no idea what sounds unnatural and what doesn't.

But from a purely grammatical point of view, "He is believed to win" or "He is hoped to win" is correct, isn't it? No.
It probably sounds silly, nobody uses such sentences but theoretically it's ok. Right?

People believe he will win --- It is believed [by some people] that he will win.
We hope he wins --- It is hoped [by us] that he will win.

The reason it's very unnatural to turn some sentences into the passive is simply that we would never have any reason to say them in the passive! We've said it here many times - just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be.
 

5jj

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We've said it here many times - just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be.
This statement is agreed with by me. ;-)
 

angelene001

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"He is believed to win" is wrong, as is "He is hoped to win." Grammatically wrong.


Now I'm totally confused :(

"CPE Use of English" by Virginia Evans is one of the most popular advanced-level grammar book, at least in Poland.
You can find there:
They believe she is a spy --> She is believed to be a spy

Does the book give the wrong information?

"He is believed to ..." can be found in other books too:
"English Grammar in Use" by Raymond Murphy
The boy is believed to be wearing a white pullover.


I understand that nobody uses such constructions.
But how can it be grammatically wrong when all these books give it as an example?
 

angelene001

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We've said it here many times - just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be.

And I'm only asking if it it can be done :) Just for the pure joy of doing it ;)
I understand that it shouldn't be done.
 

emsr2d2

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Now I'm totally confused :(

"CPE Use of English" by Virginia Evans is one of the most popular advanced-level grammar book, at least in Poland.
You can find there:
They believe she is a spy --> She is believed to be a spy

Does the book give the wrong information?

"He is believed to ..." can be found in other books too:
"English Grammar in Use" by Raymond Murphy
The boy is believed to be wearing a white pullover.


I understand that nobody uses such constructions.
But how can it be grammatically wrong when all these books give it as an example?

Look at the difference in construction between:

She is believed to be a spy (She is believed + infinitive + article + noun) :tick:= It is believed that she is a spy
And
He is believed to win (He is believed + infinitive) :cross: = It is believed that he will win.

"He is believed to be the winner" would be OK, if a little unnatural. That statement would be given after the race or competition, if there were some confusion over the result.
 

angelene001

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This statement is agreed with by me. ;-)

I get it ;)

The problem is that doing exercises I come across many sentences which seem extremely unnatural. Still, I have to change them into passive, for example.

Look at this one:
From the manner in which the committee spoke of her, you would have thought they were going to promote her. -->
From the manner in which she was spoken of, it would have been thought she was going to be promoted.
 

angelene001

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Look at the difference in construction between:

She is believed to be a spy (She is believed + infinitive + article + noun) :tick:= It is believed that she is a spy
And
He is believed to win (He is believed + infinitive) :cross: = It is believed that he will win.

"He is believed to be the winner" would be OK, if a little unnatural. That statement would be given after the race or competition, if there were some confusion over the result.


Thank you :)

Ok, I've got a little obsession with formulating rules ;)

It shouldn't be like that that a book gives some examples which are only small parts of the bigger whole.
It says that the passive of verbs of reporting such as believe, say, etc is formed in two ways (personal/impersonal constructions). It gives an example "She is believed to be a spy". How can I know that there is some hidden rule?:(

What about this one:
The missing jewellery is believed to have been found.
 

Raymott

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Now I'm totally confused :(

"CPE Use of English" by Virginia Evans is one of the most popular advanced-level grammar book, at least in Poland.
You can find there:
They believe she is a spy --> She is believed to be a spy

Does the book give the wrong information?

"He is believed to ..." can be found in other books too:
"English Grammar in Use" by Raymond Murphy
The boy is believed to be wearing a white pullover.


I understand that nobody uses such constructions.
But how can it be grammatically wrong when all these books give it as an example?
No, these are all examples of "He is believed to be ...." You can't just substitute any verb for "be".
"Being something" takes place over a period of time which includes the past, present, and future.
Winning takes place once (in most meanings). "He is believed to win" can make sense if this winning is also an ongoing action like being. Let's say 'he' is a poker player. We are talking about whether he normally wins or loses. If he always wins, I can believe that he wins. Does he win? Yes, he is believed to win most of the time. He is believed to win.
This means "He does win (usually or always)", not "He will win". (It still doesn't work with 'hope').

The missing jewellery is believed to have been found. Yes, this right
 

bhaisahab

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But sentences starting "People believe ..." are common in grammar books.
You have to change such a sentence into personal construction and the right answer is "He is believed to win" or "The missing jewellery is believed to have been found"

As a learner I have no idea what sounds unnatural and what doesn't.

But from a purely grammatical point of view, "He is believed to win" or "He is hoped to win" is correct, isn't it?
It probably sounds silly, nobody uses such sentences but theoretically it's ok. Right? No, these are not just silly, they are not correct.

Bhai.
 
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