[Grammar] present participle, thinking

[jiang]

Dear teachers,

Thinking about Mr.B. it seemed perfectly sensible to cheat.

I think this sentence is grammatically wrong, because the logical subject doesn't agree with the real subject. Is that right?

For example, we say "Entering the room he found......". We can't say "Entering the room something was there". Is that right?

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Thank you in advance.

Jiang

 

[5jj]

It seems OK to me. I can see it it as: Thinking about Mr.B. it seemed perfectly sensible (for me) to cheat. A purist might object, but most of us don't worry too much about that sort of thing. It is not as as bad as: Entering the room, something was there

 

[Barb_D]

I agree with 5jj.

While teachers and purists may object to these forms, when it's clear who is doing the verb-ing, it's not really a crisis if that subject is not the first word to appear after the comma.

While we can often laugh at sentences like "Hanging in the closet for year, I had forgotten all about that blue dress" there is not even a chance of true misunderstanding.

You should try to avoid them if you can, but don't be surprised by them and don't waste your time wondering about whether they are "really" correct. They aren't, but we largely don't care.

 

[jiang]

Hi fivejedjon,

Thank you very much for your explanation. Now I see.
In grammar test this is definitely wrong. That's why I felt puzzled.

Have a nice weekend.

Jiang

It seems OK to me. I can see it it as: Thinking about Mr.B. it seemed perfectly sensible (for me) to cheat. A purist might object, but most of us don't worry too much about that sort of thing. It is not as as bad as: Entering the room, something was there

 

[jiang]

Dear Barb_D,

Thank you very much for your explanation.
This is something interesting. In grammar test it is definitely wrong (that's why I felt confused). But in real situation it can be used!!

Have a nice weekend.

Jiang

I agree with 5jj.

While teachers and purists may object to these forms, when it's clear who is doing the verb-ing, it's not really a crisis if that subject is not the first word to appear after the comma.

While we can often laugh at sentences like "Hanging in the closet for year, I had forgotten all about that blue dress" there is not even a chance of true misunderstanding.

You should try to avoid them if you can, but don't be surprised by them and don't waste your time wondering about whether they are "really" correct. They aren't, but we largely don't care.

 

[5jj]

If that were the only mistake my learners made, I would be a very happy teacher.

I would not put a sentence such as yours in a grammar test. It seems to me to be pointless to penalise a learner for a 'mistake' that many native speakers make.

 

[philo2009]

As others have pointed out, the use of so-called "hanging" participles is always conversationally acceptable provided it does not result in ambiguity (comical or otherwise). With an impersonal 'it' as subject, there is clearly no danger whatsoever in this case.

It may also be of interest to note that certain hanging participles are even formally acceptable, e.g. 'speaking' in a sentence such as

Legally speaking, there is no problem.

(= from a legal viewpoint)

and that a number of words now functioning as prepositions, such as 'regarding' and 'concerning', also started life as simple hanging participles!

 

[jiang]

Hi fivejedjon,

This grammatical rule is one of the essential part of grammar. We dwell a lot on it.

Jiang

If that were the only mistake my learners made, I would be a very happy teacher.

I would not put a sentence such as yours in a grammar test. It seems to me to be pointless to penalise a learner for a 'mistake' that many native speakers make.

 

[jiang]

Hi philo2009,

Thank you so much for your explanation. But this brings up another problem.
According to my grammar book, your example is "independent element". Similar examples are "Generally speaking", "Weather permitting". I get totally confused.
And for example, is it correct to say "Based on the facts I wrote this report"? Or should it be "Based on the facts a report was written"?

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Thank you in advance.

Jiang

As others have pointed out, the use of so-called "hanging" participles is always conversationally acceptable provided it does not result in ambiguity (comical or otherwise). With an impersonal 'it' as subject, there is clearly no danger whatsoever in this case.

It may also be of interest to note that certain hanging participles are even formally acceptable, e.g. 'speaking' in a sentence such as

Legally speaking, there is no problem.

(= from a legal viewpoint)

and that a number of words now functioning as prepositions, such as 'regarding' and 'concerning', also started life as simple hanging participles!

 

[5jj]

This grammatical rule is one of the essential parts of grammar. We dwell a lot on it.

It may be essential to you, and you may spend a lot of time on it, but as three native speakers, a teacher (BrE) , a writer (AmE) and an academic (BrE), have noted, we don't.

 

[jiang]

Hi fivejedjon,]

Thank you very much for correcting my mistake. We are slaves of grammar and hope that we can be freed from it.

Jiang

It may be essential to you, and you may spend a lot of time on it, but as three native speakers, a teacher (BrE) , a writer (AmE) and an academic (BrE), have noted, we don't.

 

[Barb_D]

Stop being a slave to grammar and think more about whether what you have said, as a minimum, conveys your meaning and (a higher goal) sounds natural.

Dangling participles really do sound natural (and rarely cause misunderstanding).

When they COULD create misunderstanding, then you fail in your first goal: conveying your meaning. Rewrite, not because it's not grammatical, but because you could be misunderstood.

 

[philo2009]

Hi philo2009,

Thank you so much for your explanation. But this brings up another problem.
According to my grammar book, your example is "independent element". Similar examples are "Generally speaking", "Weather permitting". I get totally confused.
And for example, is it correct to say "Based on the facts I wrote this report"? Or should it be "Based on the facts a report was written"?

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Thank you in advance.

Jiang

Indeed, some grammar books may well use the term 'independent element' to describe such absolute phrases. I'm afraid that you'll simply have to learn the accepted types by heart: there is no simple rule that can predict them!

'Based on' is now in such common use that to object to it would seem pedantic. However, some more careful users will still prefer the prepositional phrase 'on the basis of...'.

 

[jiang]

Hi Barb_D,

Thank you very much for writing so. But what does this "rewrite " mean?

Jiang

Stop being a slave to grammar and think more about whether what you have said, as a minimum, conveys your meaning and (a higher goal) sounds natural.

Dangling participles really do sound natural (and rarely cause misunderstanding).

When they COULD create misunderstanding, then you fail in your first goal: conveying your meaning. Rewrite, not because it's not grammatical, but because you could be misunderstood.

 

[Barb_D]

Rewrite simply means to write it another way.

Revise, edit, etc. I spend a lot of my time as a writer doing that. The initial dump of ideas is easy. Rewriting them so they flow well is the harder part. The final check for grammar? That's the easiest part of all!

 

[jiang]

Dear Barb_D,

Thank you very much for your explanation. I think what you mean is grammar is easier to learn than word meanings.

Jiang

Rewrite simply means to write it another way.

Revise, edit, etc. I spend a lot of my time as a writer doing that. The initial dump of ideas is easy. Rewriting them so they flow well is the harder part. The final check for grammar? That's the easiest part of all!