[Grammar] RE: With in, Within, or With an - Question

[monsterjazzlicks]

RE: With in, Within, or With an - Question

Hi folks,

I have been trying to write an introduction to a short story and have recently hit a brick wall.

I am trying to describe the fact that two convicts have served (collectively) over thirty years in prison. I will give you the entire sentence for the sake of 'context':

"Within excess of thirty years bird between them – due to the most perfect brainchild of robbing the most perfectly vulnerable drug-store on South Vermont Avenue; during the same night the L.A. filth were operating their biggest ever sting operation! - this was the day for which they had been defacing the scummy walls of their six-foot by sixteen-foot cells with etchings of tally marks."
​

So my question is, please, should the first word(s) be:

"Within", "With in", or "With an"?
​

I believe it should be the former (as per entire sentence quotation), although I may be wrong.

Many thanks in advance for any kind assistance offered here.

Best,

Paul
​

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

With over thirty years ...
With more than thirty years ...
With in excess of thirty years ...

"In excess of" means "more than".
"An excess of" means "too much of".

Save "within" for contexts in which it can be replaced with some form of "inside".

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

With over thirty years ...
With more than thirty years ...
With in excess of thirty years ...

Having just typed up my question, I was beginning to wonder if it should be written:

"With excess of thirty years..."?!
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But I am assuming this would also be incorrect (as you would have suggested it otherwise!).

In any event, I will follow your kind suggestion ("With in excess of...").

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

"With excess of" would be wrong.

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

"With excess of" would be wrong.

Ha ha...it sounds the most correct to me!

If it is permissible for me to ask another question regarding the above paragraph please (otherwise I am happy to re-post it under separate cover):

"...this was the day for which they had been defacing the scummy walls of their six-foot by sixteen-foot cells with etchings of tally marks."

"...this was the day of which they had been defacing the scummy walls of their six-foot by sixteen-foot cells with etchings of tally marks."
​

Which, please, is correct regarding the word "for"/"of"?

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

For. You can take it to mean "This was the day, in readiness for which, they had been ...

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

For. You can take it to mean "This was the day, in readiness for which, they had been ...

Very interesting.

I actually thought "of" sounded the most correct!

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

Here is the whole paragraph now. I have added a couple of small (but hopefully effective!) adjustments. The addition of the word 'lopsided' and also a slight contraction of the dimensions (of their prison cell).

"With in excess of thirty years bird between them – due to the most perfect brainchild of robbing the most perfectly vulnerable drug-store on South Vermont Avenue; during the same night the L.A. filth were operating their biggest ever sting operation! - this was the day for which they had been defacing the scummy walls of their six-by sixteen-foot cells with scrawly etchings of lopsided tally marks. It had arrived. Yes, this day had finally come. And more importantly it was THEIR day."
​

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

Here is the whole paragraph now. I have added a couple of small (but hopefully effective!) adjustments. Addition of the word 'lopsided' and also a slight contraction of the dimensions (of their prison cell).

"With in excess of thirty years'bird between them – due to the most perfect [strike]brainchild[/strike] plan of robbing the most perfectly vulnerable drug-store on South Vermont Avenue (no semi-colon here) ([STRIKE]during[/STRIKE] on the same night the L.A. filth were [STRIKE]operating[/STRIKE] undertaking their biggest ever sting operation!) - this was the day for which they had been defacing the scummy walls of their six-by sixteen-foot cells with scrawly etchings of lopsided tally marks. It had arrived. Yes, this day had finally come. And more importantly it was THEIR day."
​

See above.

I don't like the repetitive nature of "most perfect" and "most perfectly".

You used "brainchild" wrongly. Something is the brainchild of the people who thought it up.

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

Wow!, thanks. Very clever!

The reason I placed the semi-colon where I did (in the middle of the em-dash section) was to try and create a slight break/breath (as well as showing a relationship between the two parts). Perhaps the relationship emphasis is not required, as you imply. And the complexity/length of the inner em-dash section has been broken up (it needed something!) by your strategic placement of parentheses.

Possible substitutions of the words "on" and "operating" were something I completely missed and failed to consider. I really liked the word "brainchild" but I see you have created alliteration here instead.

I am reading every single night now, and so I am trying to absorb (and apply) as much grammatical 'correctness' as I go along.

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

I don't like the repetitive nature of "most perfect" and "most perfectly".

Well, I was trying to create the effect of repetition. And also to show a little development with the phrase (ie. "perfect" becomes "perfectly"). I am kind of following-my-nose at the moment, and making my own 'quirky' little rules up as I go along...

I think it still makes grammatical sense, and so perhaps it is just something which grates on you somewhat?!

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

"With in excess of thirty years'bird between them.."

Have you inserted an apostrophe because it is a case of 'belonging to'? And is the absence of a 'space' (between "years" and "bird") intentional please? Thanks.

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

The apostrophe is used in the construction you chose.

It takes thirty minutes to walk to the beach.
It is a thirty-minute walk to the beach.
The beach is thirty minutes' walk away.

They have thirty years of prison time between them.
They have thirty years' prison time between them.

 

[emsr2d2]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

Well, I was trying to create the effect of repetition (no full stop here) and [STRIKE]also[/STRIKE] to show a little development (there was no need to italicise the word) with the phrase (i.e. "perfect" becomes "perfectly"). I am kind of following my nose (your original hyphens were not correct) at the moment, and making my own 'quirky' little rules up as I go along. (There was no need for an ellipsis there.)

I think it still makes grammatical sense (no comma required here) [STRIKE]and[/STRIKE] so perhaps it is just something which grates (there was no need to italicise the word) on you somewhat?!

If you were aiming for repetition then it's OK.

Quirky or not, you're not making up your own "rules". You're just choosing your own style.

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

Gee whiz, I had no idea my English was so poor! A bit of a wake up call to say the least.

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

"With in excess of thirty years'bird between them – due to the most perfect brainchild plan of robbing the most perfectly vulnerable drug-store on South Vermont Avenue (no semi-colon here) (during on the same night the L.A. filth were operating undertaking their biggest ever sting operation!) - this was the day for which they had been defacing the scummy walls of their six-by sixteen-foot cells with scrawly etchings of lopsided tally marks. It had arrived. Yes, this day had finally come. And more importantly it was THEIR day."
​

I have just read the first part of the introduction through again (having slept on it) and it definitely reads much better now, thanks.

 

[GoesStation]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

It looks like this is in an American setting. We colonials have no idea what "thirty years' bird" means.

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

It looks like this is in an American setting. We colonials have no idea what "thirty years' bird" means.

Yes, it is set in America (maybe the line including "South Vermont Avenue" gave it away?).

The term "bird" is an abbreviation for "jailbird":

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/jailbird
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If you have 'done bird' then this means you have 'served time':

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/time+served
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'Thirty years' (in this case) is the combined duration (of their two sentences).

The fact that the two convicts had counted off the days on their cell walls ("tally marks") was intended to clarify the environment/setting.

But I can fully appreciate that not all things are obvious to people from different backgrounds etc. And so I hope you find this short explanation helpful.

 

[GoesStation]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

Unless the person telling the story is British, it looks odd to see British slang in an American context.

Vermont Avenue was a clue, but L.A. was the real giveaway. I used to live there.

 

[monsterjazzlicks]

Re: With in, Within, or With an - Question

Unless the person telling the story is British, it looks odd to see British slang in an American context.

Vermont Avenue was a clue, but L.A. was the real giveaway. I used to live there.

Yes I am British and yes it is in an American context.

Is it obvious that the narrator's voice (i.e. mine!) is British? Do you think that this is bad form? Or is it permissible to have an American based story, with American speaking characters, but the narration in British? Thanks.

I have been studying the history of America for about three or four years now. But I have never been lucky enough to live there.