so that, so

[diamondcutter]

1. She got up late so that she missed the early bus.
2. She got up late, so she missed the early bus.
(by a student)

A student asked me the difference between the two sentences. I told her the difference is very little and she could ignore it. Now I’m trying to say something about the difference.

Let me think of a context.

The girl’s mother told the girl to get up or she would miss the early bus but the girl didn’t listen and slept over. The girl was upset. The girl’s father asked the mother what happened.

In this context, I think the mother could say either of the sentences above.
The first one showed the mother was a little angry. And the second one showed the mother didn’t care too much.

I’d like to read your comments.

 

[emsr2d2]

1. She got up late so that she missed the early bus.
2. She got up late, so she missed the early bus.

The difference is that sentence 1 means that she got up late on purpose, in order to miss the early bus. Sentence 2 means that she got up late and the consequence was that she missed the early bus.

 

[diamondcutter]

Thanks, emsr2d2.

What about this sentence?

She got up so late that she missed the early bus.

Does this sentence mean she got up late on purpose, in order to miss the early bus or she got up late and the consequence was that she missed the early bus?

 

[jutfrank]

Does this sentence mean she got up late on purpose, in order to miss the early bus or she got up late and the consequence was that she missed the early bus?

The latter. It's a different kind of consequence pattern.

 

[diamondcutter]

Thanks, jutfrank.

What about these two sentences? Do they have the same difference, as emsr2d2 said, as the the two sentences in #1?

My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home, so that the lid would not stay closed.
( From Collins COBUILD English Usage)
My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home so the lid would not stay closed.
(Rewritten by me)

 

[emsr2d2]

Thanks, jutfrank.

What about these two sentences? Do they have the same difference, as emsr2d2 said, as the the two sentences in #1?

My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home, so that the lid would not stay closed.
( From Collins COBUILD English Usage)
My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home so the lid would not stay closed.
(Rewritten by me)

These two sentences were discussed at length in another thread about six months ago. If someone can find it, please link to it. I'm definitely not getting into it again!

 

[tzfujimino]

I haven't been able to find the discussion here, unfortunately. (I'm sure I've read it on UE.)
However, I've found this:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/she-got-up-late-so-she-missed-the-early-bus.3276911/

 

[diamondcutter]

Thanks, tzfujimino.

1a. She got up late so that she missed the early bus.
1b. She got up late, so she missed the early bus.

2a.My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home, so that the lid would not stay closed.
2b.My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home so the lid would not stay closed.

This is my explanation. I’d like to read your comments.

1a and 2a emphasize the causal link between the events by using “so that”.
2a and 2b simply tell the consequences of the previous events by using “so”.

 

[GoesStation]

1a. She got up late so that she missed the early bus.

2a.My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home, so that the lid would not stay closed.

1a and 2a emphasize the causal link between the events by using “so that”.

No. "So that" establishes purpose, intention. In 1a, her purpose in getting up late was to miss the bus. In 2a, the suitcase somehow intended to keep the lid open. Neither case is logical.

 

[tzfujimino]

Thanks, tzfujimino.
1a. She got up late so that she missed the early bus.
1b. She got up late, so she missed the early bus.

2a.My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home, so that the lid would not stay closed.
2b.My suitcase had become damaged on the journey home so the lid would not stay closed.

This is my explanation. I’d like to read your comments.

You should ask for native speakers' opinions.

Well, for me the "... so that ..." in 1a and 2a is close in meaning to "..., and as a result, ...".
I take the "... so ..." in 1b and 2b to mean '..., and that's why ..."

I hope you'll find these helpful:

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/so_3 (definition #1 and #3)

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/threads/160308-so-so-that

I personally use "so that ... can/will ..." to express purpose.

Not a native speaker

 

[jutfrank]

I think you're complicating matters unnecessarily.

1) She got up late, so she missed the bus. :tick:
2) She got up late, so that she missed the bus. :cross:

While it is true that sentence 2 could be interpreted to mean that she got up late in order to miss the bus, this is not what the person who wrote the sentence meant, so it's wrong. Furthermore, if you really did mean to create a sentence with such a meaning, then you'd use would: She got up late so that she'd miss the bus.

So just forget about sentence 2. If you want to focus on the use of 'so that' for purpose, then you need to find a much better example. The 'suitcase' sentence from the dictionary is obviously not about purpose. It's also not identical to your rewritten sentence. If you want to know more about that, I think you'd better start a new thread, otherwise I fear we're going to get lost here.