[General] speaking and writing are outputs of the knowledge

[Silverobama]

Hi.

I have a friend who is a teacher. His spoken English and written English are good. His listening and reading are also good. He always tells his students that if one really wants to master a language, they must pay more attention to writing and speaking. This means that one needs to know how to speak and write because all the things you speak and write are the way how you organize your thoughts. In comparison, reading things aloud or doing reading paper exercise and listening only require your focus, there isn't any "production" of one's thoughts. He said "Speaking and writing are outputs of the knowledge". Is this sentence natural?

 

[abaka]

Not really, though it might pass in an academic essay, with a small change to "outputs of knowledge".

 

[Silverobama]

Not really, though it might pass in an academic essay, with a small change to "outputs of knowledge".

How can I put it in spoken English? May I ask for an alternative?

 

[abaka]

People say and write what they think they know.

 

[Silverobama]

People say and write what they think they know.

Thank you very much, Abaka. But this doesn't emphasize the importance of one's capability to organize one's thoughts. Maybe I need to ask on WR again then post it here.

 

[jutfrank]

English teachers call listening and reading receptive skills, and speaking and writing productive skills.

I'm not entirely sure what your friend meant. Did he mean to say that we organise our thoughts by articulating them in language?

 

[abaka]

Thank you very much, Abaka. But this doesn't emphasize the importance of one's capability to organize one's thoughts. Maybe I need to ask on WR again then post it here.

In that case:
How people think and express their thoughts is determined by what they know.
Or:
Knowledge structures and limits thought and expression.
Or:
Knowledge is a machine to structure and output thought.

There are any number of ways to improve and express this idea. But structure and organization are not present in the original sentence.

 

[Silverobama]

Hmm, I know where the problem is. First of all, thank you very much, abaka and Jutfrank.

English teachers call listening and reading receptive skills, and speaking and writing productive skills.

Very good summarization.

What he wants to say is "Listening and reading are receptive skills; you receive knowledge from the outside world. While speaking and writing are productive skills, you have to organize thoughts, have to use the language. this is important, much more important, than receptive skills which require only listening and reading. So, in a word, if you're capable of producing language (say and write), you've got a real mastery of this language and this is also why producing skills are much more important a capability to a student".

I know the sentences are too long, but that's what he tried to say. Actually he didn't express the idea clearly because it's hard. Now, I've tried my best to sum it up. I need your help to shorten it and make it sound natural. :up::-D

 

[Silverobama]

Ignoring for a moment any corrections needed in you last post, that's a very questionable statement. IF (I stress the word) mastery of the receptive skills is necessary before one can gain mastery of the productive skills, then the latter can't be more important than the former. It's also impossible to participate meaningfully in a dialogue if one has mastery of only one of these sets. of skills

How about "English learners need to get more practice on written and spoken English because that's how you use the language".

 

[Tarheel]

First, I wouldn't use the word more there. Second, all of those skills are important. There aren't any more important than the others. Probably the first skill learned is listening and understanding spoken English. Then comes the ability to speak. Then comes the ability to read the written word. Then comes writing.

 

[Silverobama]

Dear teachers.

I asked this question by improving the context on WR. Thank you so much for your help so far.

 

[Tdol]

First, I wouldn't use the word more there. Second, all of those skills are important. There aren't any more important than the others. Probably the first skill learned is listening and understanding spoken English. Then comes the ability to speak. Then comes the ability to read the written word. Then comes writing.

Strangely, I have lived in places where I could speak better than I could understand.

 

[emsr2d2]

Strangely, I have lived in places where I could speak better than I could understand.

That was my experience all the time I lived in Spain. I actually picked up the language, particularly the vocabulary, pretty quickly. When I spoke Spanish, I was understood. However, the speed with which the locals spoke meant that I was frequently completely baffled when listening to them or trying to converse.

 

[jutfrank]

Strangely, I have lived in places where I could speak better than I could understand.

When I spoke Spanish, I was understood. However, the speed with which the locals spoke meant that I was frequently completely baffled when listening to them or trying to converse.

These are very good points.

Probably the first skill learned is listening and understanding spoken English. Then comes the ability to speak. Then comes the ability to read the written word. Then comes writing.

This is certainly true for learning a first language, but not necessarily so for a second or further language.

 

[abaka]

Strangely, I have lived in places where I could speak better than I could understand.

I think most people learning a new language in its native environment go through this phase. Here in Canada, which has had hundreds of thousands of immigrants annually for decades, you see this every day. It seems the worst phase for a learner to go through: you can see the frustration on their faces.

 

[Tarheel]

I was speaking in general terms, of course. Also, I was trying to help Silver.

I think I now understand the point. (It was not easy.)

Silver, I think your question has two parts. First, does the sentence in question make sense? Second, should that person be making such statements in the first place?

Your friend is trying to present himself as some sort of authority figure. Also, if he is going to be a teacher of English he should be able to speak well enough so he can be understood without his sentences having to be rephrased.

You and your friend have the same problem. You often bite more than you can chew.

My opinion.

 

[Silverobama]

Also, I was trying to help Silver.

I appreciate that, Tarheel. I've been following you guys, reading all the replies here and elsewhere. :-D

I want to say that I ask only language questions. The previous one about duckling is an example. I've been learning English for 25 years (I wasted 15 more years at school, learning nothing) and I can understand culture differences. So I ask only language questions and I try to explain the differences.

Silver, I think your question has two parts. First, does the ]sentence in question make sense? Second, should that person be making such statements in the first place?

No. I was totally wrong when asking this question, Tarheel. My bad, I didn't carefully thought about it before asking. My friend's point is so clear that everyone can understand when hearing it. Like I said in another forum, he's successful and arrogant so he thinks he's always right. In China, an overall 8 of the IELTS means you can have a very decent job and earn a lot of money every year. He was from a poor area of a town (like me) and he bought an apartment in the downtown.

He believes that productive skills are far more important than receptive skills because Chinese English learners here are not good at English at all. He's a teacher, knows the students from A to Z.

Your friend is trying to present himself as some sort of authority figure. Also, if he is going to be a teacher of English he should be able to speak well enough so he can be understood without his sentences having to be rephrased.

You and your friend have the same problem. You often bite more than you can chew.

Well, you might be right. But usually I don't make an judgment of people even though I know them well. I think it's not wrong to have one's thoughts. You've never lived in China and taught Chinese students English, you will never know how they're struggling with English, particularly spoken section. He's a teacher teaching IELTS in a university now. He's also very popular among students. Many native speakers here think that his English is very good. He didn't express himself clearly about this receptive skills stuff because he doesn't know these lingusitic terms, neither do I. Thank you so much, Jutfrank, by the way.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

 

[Tarheel]

It's not meant as a putdown. It just means the person is overambitious.

 

[Tarheel]

I am not a linguist. While I might remember them, I won't be using them.

 

[Tarheel]

Speaking and writing are outputs of the knowledge.

No.