That you have obtained consent

[DANAU]

Hi.

I am reading up on the use of "that" to start off a sentence and came across a closed thread titled A Sentence Starting With 'that' in this forum
dated 21 FEB 2012. I have extracted the examples given in that thread, posting here under #1 and #2.

The last comment made about these two sentence constructions was "A noun phrase, either acting as the subject in a full sentence or as one noun phrase among many in a list, can start with 'That'."

Emsr2d2 then asked the student what he thought about the comment, which the student did not confirm.
I am interested to know if "that" was used correctly in #1 and #2. (I suppose 2 has to be correct since it was taken from FDA website.)

It seems both clauses have very similar construction: with subject as "you" and "the trial" and the corresponding verb as "have obtained" and "involves".

Or can I understand that a proper noun phrase requires a determiner, which #2 has, but not the case for #1?


#1
The letter must at least include the following.

1. The reason why you would like to apply for this program.
2. That you have obtained consent from your parents about your participating this program.

#2
Both the informed consent discussion and the written informed consent form and any other written information to be provided to subjects should include explanations of the following:
(a) That the trial involves research.
(b) The purpose of the trial.
(c) The trial treatment(s) and the probability for random assignment to
each treatment.

The above is from the U.S. FDA (Food and Drug Administration)'s website.
(Please see Page 23/63)
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/regulat.../ucm129515.pdf

 

[tzfujimino]

Here's the link:

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/threads/166060-A-sentence-starting-with-quot-that-quot

 

[DANAU]

I think I know the answer: one of the key element of a noun phrase is that it must have a noun. #1 only has a pronoun "you" without a noun, but #2 has a proper noun "the trial".

 

[Tarheel]

I think I know the answer: one of the key elements of a noun phrase is that it must have a noun. #1 only has a pronoun "you" without a noun, but #2 has a proper noun "the trial".

A noun phrase acts as a noun (subject or object) no matter how many words comprise the phrase.

 

[DANAU]

Hi Tarheel.

Yes, that is right, except a noun phrase needs to have at least a noun within the phrase.
“you” is not a noun but a pronoun.
“trial” is a noun.

Given above, only #2, but not #1, can be correctly constructed starting with “That” since the
earlier thread advised that “that” can only be constructed using a noun phrase.

I hope I have understood correctly.

 

[Tarheel]

Yes, you've probably got it right.

This is probably irrelevant, but one of the most common mistakes learners make is asking about the wrong thing. That is, for example, they may be dealing with a noun phrase and not know it. (It's not that complicated once you get used to it.)

It's past my bedtime. We can talk more later.
;-)

 

[DANAU]

Hi Piscean.

Please advise if both of the "that" clauses below are acceptable in the given context.

#1
The letter must at least include the following.

1. The reason why you would like to apply for this program.
2. That you have obtained consent from your parents about your participating this program.

#2
Both the informed consent discussion and the written informed consent form and any other written information to be provided to subjects should include explanations of the following:
(a) That the trial involves research.
(b) The purpose of the trial.
(c) The trial treatment(s) and the probability for random assignment to
each treatment.

 

[teechar]

You cannot 'include that'

I agree with Piscean that saying "The letter must include that you have ..." would be ungrammatical. The reason is that "include" is a transitive verb (it requires an object), and there is no object in that sentence.

However, it is certainly possible to say: "Include this/that". In that kind of sentence, "this" and "that" work as pronouns and are the object or the verb "include".

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Danau: there's no need to write such long posts. Please try to make your future posts as concise and to the point as possible. You can certainly include a link where appropriate, but please try to focus on the main issue you'd like clarified.