[the] cats?

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Hi,

I'd like to know if the definite article is necessary in the following, and what difference it makes.

[The] cats running in the dark frightened Mary to death.

I'd appreciate your help.

 

[GoesStation]

The sentence is possible with or without the definite article. With it, it means that some specific cats which were previously mentioned frightened Mary. Without it, means that any cat frightened her.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Suppose a person went to a cave. Does the use of "the cats" mean "all the cats running around in the cave"? What if there were 100 cats in total that were running around. And the person was frightened only by the first 80 running cats he or she came across. Could "the" still be used? Would "the' be optional here?

 

[GoesStation]

Suppose a person went to a cave. Does the use of "the cats" mean "all the cats running around in the cave"? What if there were 100 cats in total that were running around. And the person was frightened only by the first 80 running cats he or she came across. Could "the" still be used? Would "the' be optional here?

Can you write a couple of sentences illustrating what you have in mind?

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Can you write a couple of sentences illustrating what you have in mind?

What is wrong with Mary? Birds flying around in that cave frightened her to death.

 

[GoesStation]

What is wrong with Mary? Birds flying around in that cave frightened her to death.

These sentences are OK. The absence of an article before birds means that an unspecified number of birds caused her fear. If you wrote The birds, you'd be talking specifically about the birds in that cave. In this case there's little difference in meaning with or without the article.

 

[GoesStation]

Also asked and answered here.

 

[Rover_KE]

You'd think the cats would have chased the birds away.:roll:

Raymond,

we recommend posting a question on one forum only initially. If you do not get a satisfactory answer from that forum and you feel that you have exhausted its possibilities, then of course trying a different forum might help. It is only courteous however, to tell the second forum that you have already asked the question on another forum and then give a precis of the answers you received there, or provide a link to it, along with an explanation of why you are now looking elsewhere.

(emsr2d2)

 

[Tdol]

Suppose a person went to a cave. Does the use of "the cats" mean "all the cats running around in the cave"? What if there were 100 cats in total that were running around. And the person was frightened only by the first 80 running cats he or she came across. Could "the" still be used? Would "the' be optional here?

If she was only frightened by some of the cats, you could drop the article.

 

[jutfrank]

I'd like to know if the definite article is necessary in the following, and what difference it makes.

[The] cats running in the dark frightened Mary to death.

It's a very odd sentence. Where did you see it?

Both versions of the sentence are grammatical. The version with The adds a specific reference to the noun cats. That means that if you use The, you are referring to some specific cats.

The cats do not necessarily have to have been mentioned in previous context, though it is quite likely.

 

[jutfrank]

Suppose a person went to a cave. Does the use of "the cats" mean "all the cats running around in the cave"? What if there were 100 cats in total that were running around. And the person was frightened only by the first 80 running cats he or she came across. Could "the" still be used? Would "the' be optional here?

These questions are irrelevant. Or at least unhelpful. Without context, we cannot know what the speaker means.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

These questions are irrelevant. Or at least unhelpful. Without context, we cannot know what the speaker means.

A: What is wrong with Mary?
B: [The] cats running in the dark frightened her to death.

Suppose no cats were mentioned previously. If "the" is used, does "the cats" refer to all the cats running in the dark?

 

[jutfrank]

A: What is wrong with Mary?
B: [The] cats running in the dark frightened her to death.

Suppose no cats were mentioned previously. If "the" is used, does "the cats" refer to all the cats running in the dark?

If no cats have been mentioned, it would be very strange to refer to them specifically. You could say Some cats frightened her.

If person B says The cats, he supposes that person A knows which cats he's talking about. If he thinks that person A has no idea about any cats, he won't use The.

Stop asking about what proportion of cats are running in the dark. It doesn't matter.

 

[Tdol]

If the number of cats doing the running is that important, then state the proportions. Most speakers simply wouldn't care.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

If no cats have been mentioned, it would be very strange to refer to them specifically. You could say Some cats frightened her.

If person B says The cats, he supposes that person A knows which cats he's talking about. If he thinks that person A has no idea about any cats, he won't use The.

Stop asking about what proportion of cats are running in the dark. It doesn't matter.

The use of the definite article is a deceptively simple matter. True, beginners are taught that "the"is used to talk about specific referents.
But all too often that generalization runs into difficulty with examples like "The Germans are known to be rigorous," "Australians don't like to be mistaken for New Zealanders," or "Residents are up in arms about plans for a new road along the beach." Some such examples don't have "the," but they are still specific enough, or it is not clear "the" makes the reference specific; if anything, "the Germans" don't seem to refer to a particular group of Germans.

My question is not really about the exact proportion, but about whether "the cats" refer to all the cats in a scenario, like "the Germans" in the above example.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

Could you come up with a generalization that shows when "the" is used about generic referents and when the zero article is used about specific referents?

 

[jutfrank]

My question is ... about whether "the cats" refer to all the cats in a scenario, like "the Germans" in the above example.

To be honest, I don't understand what you are asking.

This is really quite simple, if you say "the cats", you are making specific reference to a group of cats. Another way to say this is that you are specifying which cats you mean.

It does not matter what proportion of cats this specified group of cats represents in relation to any other related or unrelated groups of cats.

Forget about the example of the Germans—it isn't going to help you understand the cat scenario.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

What about the "resident" example? There is no definite article there, but the referents seem to be specific. Can't 'cats" behave in the same way?

 

[jutfrank]

Could you come up with a generalization that shows when "the" is used about generic referents and when the zero article is used about specific referents?

I'm not sure what you mean.

1) How do you think the can be "used about generic referents"? Are you thinking of the example of the Germans?

2) When do you think the zero article is "used about specific referents"? Can you give an example? Perhaps you're thinking of proper nouns? We don't, for example, say the Taiwan when referring to the country. We just say Taiwan, without an article.

 

[raymondaliasapollyon]

I'm not sure what you mean.

1) How do you think the can be "used about generic referents"? Are you thinking of the example of the Germans?

2) When do you think the zero article is "used about specific referents"? Can you give an example? Perhaps you're thinking of proper nouns? We don't, for example, say the Taiwan when referring to the country. We just say Taiwan, without an article.

Yes, I'm thinking about the example involving "the Germans."

And I am not talking about proper nouns, but "Residents are up in arms about plans for a new road along the beach."
Here, "residents" refers to specific people living in a place, not just any random collection of people.