The Sudan

[Glizdka]

This is a quote from Elizabeth Warren.

"And [the banks] also admitted to violating our sanctions for Iran, Libya, Cuba, Burma, the Sudan."

I'm curious why there's the before Sudan. Isn't that a country? She's definitely not referring to the geographical region. I'm flummoxed. Little help?

 

[emsr2d2]

It's official name is the Republic of the Sudan, rather than the Republic of Sudan. I think that's why she left the article in.

 

[Glizdka]

It's official name is the Republic of the Sudan, rather than the Republic of Sudan. I think that's why she left the article in.

Let me ask a different question, then. Why is the official name of the country "The Republic of the Sudan"?

By the way, shouldn't you have said its rather than it's?

 

[emsr2d2]

Let me ask a different question, then. Why is the official name of the country "The Republic of the Sudan"?

By the way, shouldn't you have said its rather than it's?

I can't answer the first question. You'd have to ask whoever decided on the name.

But yes, you're absolutely right about the second question. It was a classic case of changing my mind about what I was going to write after I'd started. I was going to say "It's called the Republic of the Sudan ...". After I'd typed "It's", I decided to change the next part but I failed to go back and change "It's" to "Its". Well spotted. I won't edit my post now, because that would make your post seem nonsensical.

 

[GoesStation]

I decided to change the next part but I failed to go back and change "It's" to "Its". Well spotted. I won't edit my post now, because that would make your post seem nonsensical.

I fixed it before reading this message. I've put the error back. :-(

 

[Glizdka]

I understand that there was a decision to name it as such, but I don't like the idea of blindly following the decision that was made long ago and that I'm to follow it without understanding why it was made. Besides, I'd like to understand how the affects an English speaking person's perception of a country's name; I know of a few instances where a country's name's accompanied by the definite article, and I think I understand what effect the has on the perception of the names of these countries, but the example with Sudan is a new one. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever as to why the is there.

If I were to be guessing right now...

To my knowledge, Sudan is also a geographical region. The presence of the gives me the feeling of "one of many", and since we have South Sudan, North Sudan, and probably a few other Sudans I'm too ignorant to properly acknowledge the existence of, the Sudan sounds like the collection of all the Sudans. I've seen a similar thing with the Americas, but the important difference is that the Sudan is singular.

...that would be my guess. Other than that, I'm clueless. But I'd like to know how you feel about it.

 

[teechar]

You're really giving it more attention, energy and significance than it deserves. It wouldn't be a mistake if you referred to that country as Sudan. In fact, many such country names are losing the definite article that has been traditionally attached to them, for example Lebanon, Gambia and Yemen. However, some will likely continue to have it, such as The Netherlands.

 

[Glizdka]

You're really giving it more attention, energy and significance than it deserves.

You're probably right, but I want to know the answer regardless.

It's not really that I care about Sudan that much (sorry if someone's from there; I'm sure it's a beautiful country worth expanding my knowledge about), it's about the article. Coming from a language that has no concept of articles or a part of speech remotely resembling an article, it's been a difficult endeavor for me to try and understand how they work.

Every so often, I find an article in a place I would've never expected it to be, and it sparks my curiosity. It's always a clue that I haven't fully understood them yet. This is one of such instances.

Little help?

 

[emsr2d2]

I've given you the only help I can. A country's official name should be respected. Whilst I can't deny that many people refer to it simply as "Sudan", it seems to me that we should be calling it "the Sudan".
The opening line of the Wikipedia article makes it clear that "Sudan" is a geographical region, not a country, so if it's important to make it clear that it's the country, the writer/speaker needs to use the article.

The reverse issue occurs when people say "the Ukraine" when, since its independence, it should just be called "Ukraine".

 

[Glizdka]

Thank you, emsr2d2, this was exactly what I needed.

So it's meant to help distinguish between the geographical region and the country.

 

[emsr2d2]

Thank you, emsr2d2, this was exactly what I needed.

So it's meant to help distinguish between the geographical region and the country.

According to Wikipedia, yes. I readily admit I didn't know that until I researched it. I've always referred to the country just as Sudan (I suppose I should stop doing that from now on).

 

[teechar]

but [STRIKE]I want to[/STRIKE] know the answer regardless.

It's more polite to say "I'd like to".

 

[Tdol]

The reverse issue occurs when people say "the Ukraine" when, since its independence, it should just be called "Ukraine".

The name the Sudan was given to the geographical region before it was a country. We used the Ukraine before independence, and it took me a while to switch to the new form.

 

[Glizdka]

The name the Sudan was given to the geographical region before it was a country. We used the Ukraine before independence, and it took me a while to switch to the new form.

Is it similar to the Amazon? If the hypothetical country of "The Republic of the Amazon" was created, would it be a similar case?

 

[bubbha]

"the Ukraine" and "the Sudan" are traditional ways of saying these two countries/regions. In my thinking, the addition of "the" gives the words a descriptive sound, as if they're part of a longer phase like "the Amazon rainforest".

"The Gambia" is the name of that country; the government insists on adding "The", as the country is named after the Gambia River.

Then there is the case of plural names: the Netherlands, the Philippines, the Maldives, the Marshall Islands, the Solomon Islands, the Seychelles, etc. Note that not all of them have "the" in their official names, but we habitually add "the" to them.

And then there's El Salvador. "el" is "the" in Spanish.