warm elegance and dogged gentility.

[GoodTaste]

Is the word "dogged" used sarcastically?

A neutral or positive description would be "lingering gentility" - I am not sure.

===============
It is not a large room and jammed with tables, mostly for four but sme for six and eight. A long table of honor, for about thirty people, has been placed upon a dais. Dinner is over. Demi-tasses, cigars and brandy. The overall effect is one of warm elegance and dogged gentility. It is June. Night.

Source: All About Eve

 

[GoesStation]

What does "dogged" mean?

 

[GoodTaste]

dogged: very determined to do something, even if it is very difficult

So "dogged gentility" seems to mean "making great efforts to show the manner of gentility." It could be sarcastic or neutral. I am not sure.

 

[GoesStation]

In what dictionary have you seen "dogged" defined as "making great efforts"?

 

[GoodTaste]

Common sense tells us that when things are very difficult, great efforts would be made in solving them. The definition, "dogged: very determined to do something, even if it is very difficult", clearly points out that "something" could be very difficult. So that common sense applies. The definition is given by Cambridge Dictionary.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Let's look at this another way:

1. Single words are never sarcastic. Sarcasm is about context, not word choice. There is no vocabulary for sarcasm.

2. You've provided the context: the description of a stage set. Why do you think it might be sarcastic?

 

[GoodTaste]

1. Single words are never sarcastic. Sarcasm is about context, not word choice. There is no vocabulary for sarcasm.

2. You've provided the context: the description of a stage set. Why do you think it might be sarcastic?

A) The complete context is the film itself. The film is "All About Eve", who climbs to top rank of the threatre and grabs the holy grail of it by deception; and in that room there is a gentleman called Addison, who sees through her and controls her (he tells Eve: "You realize and you agree how you completely belong to me?" - and Eve nods). Together they deceive the community of theater). So the gentility both of them show is sarcastic.

B) The word "doggy" involves dog in etymology. And the image of dog can be either a loving creature or a low creature. So "doggy" might be sarcastic in some context. Hence the thread.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

A) The complete context is the film itself. The film is "All About Eve",

I've seen it many times. A wonderful flick. If you like movie history, you'll be interested to know that Bette Davis broke the age barrier in that film. Young actresses were expected to retire after a certain age. She figured out how to continue her film carrier, and acted in them well into old age. (See Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte, and Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?

who climbs to top rank of the theatre and grabs the holy grail of it by deception. And in that room there is a gentleman called Addison, who sees through her and controls her (he tells Eve: "You realize and you agree how you completely belong to me?" - and Eve nods). Together they deceive the community of theater). So the gentility both of them show is sarcastic.

B) The word "dogged" involves dog in etymology.

Yes, because dogs can be relentless, determined, single-minded, focused.

And the image of dog can be either a loving creature or a low creature. So "dogged" might be sarcastic in some context. Hence the thread.

You've described the situation very well. It's clear that you understand the movie thoroughly.

However, you might look up sarcastic. It doesn't work as you're using it. A stage set isn't sarcastic. Neither is gentility.

 

[GoodTaste]

The thread is about 'dogged', not 'doggy'.

OK. But "dogged" is more closely related to dog:

dogged (adj.)
"having the qualities of a dog" (mostly in a negative sense, "mean, surly, contemptible"), c. 1300, from dog (n.). Meaning "persistent, silently obstinate" is from 1779. Hence doggedly (late 14c.), "cruelly, maliciously;" later "with a dog's persistence" (1773). Related: Doggedness.

 

[GoesStation]

OK. But "dogged" is more closely related to dog:

It means persistently, determinedly. Modern speakers don't generally associate it with canines.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

OK. But "dogged" is more closely related to dog:

Let's try again:

1. Dogged does not mean dog-like. The decor has nothing to do with dogs. Get that out of your head.

If the word bothers you, just replace it with one of these:

- determined
- resolute
- stubborn
- distinct
- absolute
- firm
- intractable
- relentless
- unqualified

2. You wrote that "the gentility both of them show is sarcastic." Again, that's not what sarcastic means. You're using it incorrectly.

You could say that it's ironic that well-mannered people are behaving cruelly.

Irony is not sarcasm. Look up both words.

 

[GoodTaste]

Irony is not sarcasm. Look up both words.[/COLOR]

My dictionary tells me that sarcasm is the use of irony.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

My dictionary tells me that sarcasm is the use of irony.

Aha! They're two different things. Look in a few more dictionaries. (I gave you an example of irony above.)

Sarcasm involves saying the opposite of what you think in order to be snarky. There are excellent examples of sarcasm in the movie My Cousin Vinny. Have you seen it? Here's a clip from it. The sarcastic lines are at 0:45 and 1:50:

At 0:45, she knows that he does not blend in. And at 1:50, she knows that he's not a world traveler. She's being sarcastic. (And hilarious.)

Also, I learned something today. My wife looked up dogged in a 1958 dictionary. (She loves that thing.) Back then, stubborn was the second definition. The first defintion was sullen.

So the furnishings exuded sullen gentility!

 

[GoodTaste]

Also, I learned something today. My wife looked up dogged in a 1958 dictionary. (She loves that thing.) Back then, stubborn was the second definition. The first defintion was sullen.

So the furnishings exuded sullen gentility!

Does "sullen" mean "silent and unpleasant" at that time?

I will arrange time to read it but now information from Nature and Science and NEJM are overwhelming.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Did "sullen" mean "silent and unpleasant" at that time?

Yes.

If you ever want to see whether a definition has changed, you can look at the Oxford English Dictionary or Google the word plus etymology.

I will arrange time to read it, but now information from Nature and Science and NEJM are overwhelming.

Yup! You might also see the movie sometime. (If nothing else, you'll see what a doggedly genteel room looks like.)

 

[GoodTaste]

I just now found that I've mistyped "worn elegance and dogged gentility" as "warm elegance and dogged gentility."

[h=1]"Worn" is a good match for "sullen (dogged)".

Does "worn" here mean "very tired and seeming old"?[/h]