You don't sometimes hate them

Status
Not open for further replies.

Phaedrus

Banned
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I've never used "gotten" in BrE, and I don't recall any of my friends or family using it.
Out of curiosity, in the absence of context, do BrE speakers find a sentence like "Have you got good grades?" ambiguous?

Can you tell whether it means "Have you received good grades?" or "Do you have good grades?"

In other words, can you tell whether "Have you got good grades?" is about receiving or possessing/already having good grades?

In AmE, "Have you gotten good grades?" is about receiving, and "Have you got good grades?" is about possessing/already having good grades.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Out of curiosity, in the absence of context, do BrE speakers find a sentence like "Have you got good grades?" ambiguous?
I would normally understand Have you got? to mean Do you have?/Have you?
The other meaning would normally be rendered by Did you get?
 

Rachel Adams

Key Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Georgia
Current Location
Georgia
This is a great example of why we normally don't use adverbs of frequency after don't. It changes the meaning, completely.

"You sometimes don't hate them" means you hate them 90% of the time. Sometimes, you don't hate them.

"You don't sometimes hate them" means you hate them 0% of the time, not even sometimes.

The same applies to other situations too. Am I right? For example, "you sometimes don't drink coffee." Means you drink it 90% of the time. Sometimes you don't drink it.

"You don't sometimes drink coffee" you drink it 0% of the time, not even sometimes. Right?
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
"you sometimes don't drink coffee." Means you drink it 90% of the time. Sometimes you don't drink it.
Don't take the 90% too seriously. If there are occasions when you don't drink coffee (you sometimes don't), the suggestion is that you usually drink coffee.
"You don't sometimes drink coffee" you drink it 0% of the time, not even sometimes. Right?
We really need context to know what that means.
 

emsr2d2

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
I certainly wouldn't use "You don't sometimes drink coffee" to mean that you drink it 0% of the time. That would be expressed as "You never drink coffee" or "You don't [ever] drink coffee". To include "sometimes", I suppose you could say "You don't drink coffee - not even sometimes!" but the version with "never" is what we would use.

I've tried to come up with a natural context for "You don't sometimes drink coffee" and I've only been able to think of a rather unlikely dialogue:

Paul: What's your favourite drink?
Helen: Hot chocolate! But I sometimes drink coffee.
Sarah (Helen's best friend, looking shocked): What?! Excuse me, but you don't sometimes drink coffee. You drink it pretty much all day, every day!

In that dialogue, Sarah's "sometimes" would be emphasised in some way, either by a change of stress in her voice, or by making the quotation marks gesture with her fingers while saying the word.
 

Rachel Adams

Key Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Georgia
Current Location
Georgia
Don't take the 90% too seriously. If there are occasions when you don't drink coffee (you sometimes don't), the suggestion is that you usually drink coffee.

We really need context to know what that means.
So if it works for the original sentence, there may be contexts where it wouldn't work. I mean the 90% and 0%. Right?
 

Rachel Adams

Key Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Georgia
Current Location
Georgia
I certainly wouldn't use "You don't sometimes drink coffee" to mean that you drink it 0% of the time. That would be expressed as "You never drink coffee" or "You don't [ever] drink coffee". To include "sometimes", I suppose you could say "You don't drink coffee - not even sometimes!" but the version with "never" is what we would use.

I've tried to come up with a natural context for "You don't sometimes drink coffee" and I've only been able to think of a rather unlikely dialogue:

Paul: What's your favourite drink?
Helen: Hot chocolate! But I sometimes drink coffee.
Sarah (Helen's best friend, looking shocked): What?! Excuse me, but you don't sometimes drink coffee. You drink it pretty much all day, every day!

In that dialogue, Sarah's "sometimes" would be emphasised in some way, either by a change of stress in her voice, or by making the quotation marks gesture with her fingers while saying the word.
So the unusual position of "sometimes" is only used for emphasis. The other positions of "sometimes" as in the following sentences don't express emphasis: "you don't drink coffee sometimes" or "sometimes you don't drink coffee", "you sometimes don't drink coffee" all mean that there are occasions when she doesn't drink coffee,but she usually does. Am I right?
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
So if it works for the original sentence, there may be contexts where it wouldn't work. I mean the 90% and 0%. Right?
I don't think it works for the original sentence.
 

Rachel Adams

Key Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Georgia
Current Location
Georgia
I don't think it works for the original sentence.
OK. Thanks. I should forget about that. But native speakers who wrote the original sentence put sometimes in the middle of the sentence for emphasis. Am I right?
 

Phaedrus

Banned
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
The same applies to other situations too. Am I right? For example, "you sometimes don't drink coffee." Means you drink it 90% of the time. Sometimes you don't drink it.

"You don't sometimes drink coffee" you drink it 0% of the time, not even sometimes. Right?

A: "You sometimes drink coffee, don't you?"
B: "I don't sometimes drink coffee. I always drink it. You will rarely find me without a cup of coffee next to me." 😂
 

Phaedrus

Banned
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I would normally understand Have you got? to mean Do you have?/Have you?
The other meaning would normally be rendered by Did you get?
It would normally be rendered that way in BrE.

It's perfectly normal for AmE speakers to avail themselves of "gotten" for the "receiving" meaning in the present perfect.

Does the same apply when "get" means "purchase"? Are British speakers limited the past tense when recent-past meaning is involved?

Did you get a new iPhone? (BrE and AmE -- "purchase" meaning)
Have you gotten a new iPhone? (only AmE -- "purchase" meaning)

I assume that, for BrE speakers, as for AmE speakers, "Have you got a new iPhone?" can only mean "Do you have a new iPhone?" ("Have you a new iPhone?").
 

Glizdka

Key Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2019
Member Type
Other
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
I should point out that the 90% I used was an out-of-my-ass value. What I meant was "Usually not, but sometimes yes", which I thought would be sufficiently illustrated by 90%, so that I wouldn't have to use English to explain English, especially considering your question was about the words I'd have to use to explain them.

Paul: What's your favourite drink?
Helen: Hot chocolate! But I sometimes drink coffee.
Sarah (Helen's best friend, looking shocked): What?! Excuse me, but you don't sometimes drink coffee. You drink it pretty much all day, every day!
A: "You sometimes drink coffee, don't you?"
B: "I don't sometimes drink coffee. I always drink it. You will rarely find me without a cup of coffee next to me." 😂

This reminds me that you've already asked about using sometimes like that. some half a year ago. I even gave you a very similar example of how one might want to use sometimes after, not before, don't.

G: I've heard you sometimes read in the evening, S.
S: No, I don't sometimes read in the evening. I always read in the evening.

You'd expect noticeable emphasis on sometimes and always.

I guess this is why textbooks usually avoid talking about this word order and recommend not using it altogether. Sentences where adverbs of frequency are positioned after a negation are very peculiar and can mean various things, depending on what the context is, and a learner is very likely to mess it up. It's easier to just tell a learner that using it is unnatural and call it a day.

The key thing is to understand what is being negated—the frequency or the activity. If the adverb is positioned after the negation, it's the frequency that's being negated.


A: "Do you always do your homework?"
B: "No, not always. I don't always do my homework. I only usually do my homework because I sometimes feel too lazy to do it."


Doing your homework doesn't happen always; it happens usually. It's the frequency that is being negated, not the activity itself. You do your homework, just not always. If you want to negate the activity itself, you need to position the adverb before the negation.


C: "I usually don't do my homework. I don't have time for it."


Here, we learn what usually happens—not doing your homework. Most of the time, you don't do it. The frequency isn't being negated here; the activity is.

Now, while the sentence below is technically correct, it's extremely unlikely to be used by a native speaker...


D: "I always don't do my homework."


...because a much, much simpler way to convey the same message is available—changing the adverb of frequency...


D*: "I never do my homework."


...and that's how it usually works in real-life, everyday English. We use the simplest sentences that will do the job, so that nobody has to analyze and think what we mean.

However, sometimes, you might want to use an unusual sentence, not because it's more natural or easier to understand, but because it draws the reader's attention towards it, or maybe because the issue is so complex that it demands using a very specific, niche sentence structure to fully illustrate how complex it is.

While we'd love to live in a perfect world where family means everything and everyone's a saint, it's pretty obvious that everyone at least sometimes hates their parents. That's not what's being discussed. What we're talking about is why someone doesn't sometimes hate their parents.


E: "Wait... you're telling me you don't sometimes hate your parents? How is that possible?! Everyone sometimes hates their parents!"

 
Last edited:

Rachel Adams

Key Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Georgia
Current Location
Georgia
Could you answer my question in post 27 please?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

emsr2d2

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
So the unusual position of "sometimes" is only used for emphasis. The other positions of "sometimes", as in the following sentences, don't express emphasis:

1. "You don't drink coffee sometimes." or
2. "Sometimes you don't drink coffee."
3. "You sometimes don't drink coffee."

They all mean that there are occasions when she doesn't drink coffee, but she usually does. Am I right?

I find the word order in #1 unnatural.
I would use #2 (as part of a longer dialogue, not as a standalone sentence)
#3 is OK.
 

Rachel Adams

Key Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Georgia
Current Location
Georgia
I find the word order in #1 unnatural.
I would use #2 (as part of a longer dialogue, not as a standalone sentence)
#3 is OK.
But they don't express the same idea as the sentence "you don't sometimes drink coffee". Only this position is used for emphasis. Am I right?
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
But they don't express the same idea as the sentence "you don't sometimes drink coffee". Only this position is used for emphasis. Am I right?
Only full context and, in speech, stress and intonation can give us an good idea of what meaning is intended by the sentences below. In each of them, various words can be emphasised.

1. You don't drink coffee sometimes.
2. You don't sometimes drink coffee.
3. You sometimes don't drink coffee.
4. Sometimes you don't drink coffee.
 

jutfrank

VIP Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
The key thing is to understand what is being negated—the frequency or the activity. If the adverb is positioned after the negation, it's the frequency that's being negated.

Yes, exactly. Another way of saying that is that the negator (not) acts on what immediately follows it. That's usually a verb phrase (I don't drive) but it may be a frequency-modified phrase (I don't sometimes drive) or a negative phrase (I don't not drive).

This is a general principle of all modifiers (including not): they modify what comes directly after them. This pair shows the difference really well:

I sometimes don't drive.
I don't sometimes drive.


The only exception to this general rule that I can see is with modal auxiliaries, where the negator follows instead of precedes what it's modifying (the modal verb). For example, I can not drive probably doesn't mean you have the ability not to drive, although it can mean precisely that! With one interpretation, the not acts on the preceding modal (I can not drive) and with another, it acts on the following verb phrase (I can not drive). There are two rules in conflict here.
 

Rachel Adams

Key Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Russian
Home Country
Georgia
Current Location
Georgia
Yes, exactly. Another way of saying that is that the negator (not) acts on what immediately follows it. That's usually a verb phrase (I don't drive) but it may be a frequency-modified phrase (I don't sometimes drive) or a negative phrase (I don't not drive).

This is a general principle of all modifiers (including not): they modify what comes directly after them. This pair shows the difference really well:

I sometimes don't drive.
I don't sometimes drive.


The only exception to this general rule that I can see is with modal auxiliaries, where the negator follows instead of precedes what it's modifying (the modal verb). For example, I can not drive probably doesn't mean you have the ability not to drive, although it can mean precisely that! With one interpretation, the not acts on the preceding modal (I can not drive) and with another, it acts on the following verb phrase (I can not drive). There are two rules in conflict here.
Is it the same with other adverbs, for example, "often" "I don't often read"? What Tdol said about "sometimes" that sometimes it may not be wrong to use it in the middle of a sentence, does the same apply to "often"?
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
"I don't often read" is, I think, grammatical. (I probably wouldn't say it that way.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top