we felt that it was important that ... ?

[Katz]

Dear Teachers,

Which of the following sentences is grammatically correct?

1. We felt that it was important that John went to a good school.
2. We felt that it was important that John go to a good school.
3. We felt that it was important that John should go to a good school.

Many thanks!

 

[bhaisahab]

Dear Teachers,

Which of the following sentences is grammatically correct?

1. We felt that it was important that John went to a good school.
2. We felt that it was important that John go to a good school.
3. We felt that it was important that John should go to a good school.

Many thanks!

They are all acceptable.

 

[birdeen's call]

They are all correct, but they don't mean the same thing. Can you tell the difference between numbers 1. and 2.? Are you familiar with the subjunctive mood? If not, please google english subjunctive and read about it.

 

[Katz]

Thanks guys, I was pretty sure they were all correct but for some reason I doubted myself - I should trust my gut more often ;-)

Birdeen's call, I don't think there's any difference between 1 and 2 but I'll be more than happy to read your comments on that one if you'd like to share.

 

[birdeen's call]

There is a difference (although it might not be true for all dialects -- I don't know).

Number 1. means

John went to a good school and we felt that it was important.

Numbers 2. and 3. suggest that John didn't go to a good school. He probably didn't go to school at all. They felt that sending John to a good school was important.

 

[Katz]

That's interesting, thanks for sharing. I thought the sentences were similar in meaning.

John went to a good school and we felt that it was important.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in this case wouldn't that be:
We felt that it was important that John had gone to a good school?

 

[birdeen's call]

That's interesting, thanks for sharing. I thought the sentences were similar in meaning.

John went to a good school and we felt that it was important.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in this case wouldn't that be:
We felt that it was important that John had gone to a good school?

This is also a correct sentence. It says that John went to a good school before they felt it was important.

You will understand the difference between numbers 1. and 2. when you learn about the subjunctive mood. The second sentence makes use of it.

 

[Barb_D]

I, too, see that 1 and 2/3 say completely different things.

Like BC, 1 is "John went to a good school. That fact is important."

However, I disagree with the interpretation of 2 and 3. I don't know whether he went to a good school or not, but I do know that you were in a position to influence whether or not that happened, and you thought it was important that you try to make it so.

 

[Katz]

I didn't expect this post to get so long, but I guess this is why I like this forum - you can dissect the language to the core

Birdeen's call, thank you for your insights. I'm well aware of what the subjunctive is, but I'm still not convinced that there is a difference in meaning between sentence 1 and sentences 2 and 3.

Am I right in thinking that in all 3 cases the fact whether or not John went to a good school is not important; the emphasis here is on the fact that they (perhaps the parents) thought it would have been great if he'd got into one? Thus, the use of Past Simple in 1 does not necessarily imply that John had already been attending a good school at the time of speaking?

I'd love a comment from a native teacher on this one.

 

[birdeen's call]

However, I disagree with the interpretation of 2 and 3. I don't know whether he went to a good school or not, but I do know that you were in a position to influence whether or not that happened, and you thought it was important that you try to make it so.

You're right. I narrowed the potential scope of the sentence because I was having trouble expressing the idea without using the subjunctive.

 

[5jj]

I'd love a comment from a native teacher on this one.

I may be a very insular Brit, but even I consider Barb to be a native speaker. :-D

Here are my thoughts:

1. We felt that it was important that John went to a good school.
I agree with BC and Barb.

2. We felt that it was important that John go to a good school.
I agree with Barb.
This use of the present subjunctive is fairly formal in modern British English. Most BrE speakers would go for #3 - or even #1. Context would make the intended meaning clear -

We have put John's name down for Eton, We felt that it was important that he went to a good school. We are sure he will do well there.

3. We felt that it was important that John should go to a good school.
I agree with Barb.

 

[birdeen's call]

Am I right in thinking that in all 3 cases the fact whether or not John went to a good school is not important

No, in the first sentence this is not the case, because the mood is indicative.

 

[Katz]

Thank you all for your replies.

I'm sorry, I'd put the "native" bit in before Barb posted her reply :-D

"This use of the present subjunctive is fairly formal in modern British English. Most BrE speakers would go for #3 - or even #1."

I couldn't agree more; that's exactly why I was confused. I've heard British people use #1 and #3 in spoken English fairly often with no obvious difference in meaning.

One last thing - is the sentence:
"We felt that it was important that John had gone to a good school"
the right way to say that, as BC said, "John went to a good school before they felt it was important"?

 

[5jj]

One last thing - is the sentence:
"We felt that it was important that John had gone to a good school"
the right way to say that, as BC said, "John went to a good school before they felt it was important"?

Yes.

 

[TheParser]

Dear Teachers,

Which of the following sentences is grammatically correct?

1. We felt that it was important that John went to a good school.
2. We felt that it was important that John go to a good school.
3. We felt that it was important that John should go to a good school.

Many thanks!

Just to thank you, Katz, very much for having posted this question.

*****

After reading the great posts, I learned so much

*****

I now understand that:

(a) Most people interpret No. 1 differently from Nos. 2 & 3.

(b) Some people interpret all three sentences the same.

*****

Thanks again very much. I do not doubt that your post

helped many learners and native speakers to better understand the

differences between the indicative and the subjunctive.


Respectfully yours,


James

 

[Barb_D]

To me, this demonstrates that the subjunctive really must be used more in the US than in England, because for me there is just NO WAY that #1 means what #2 and #3 mean.

The pull to use the subjunctive is so strong that if you use "went" it changes the meaning entirely.

 

[5jj]

To me, this demonstrates that the subjunctive really must be used more in the US than in England, because for me there is just NO WAY that #1 means what #2 and #3 mean.

The pull to use the subjunctive is so strong that if you use "went" it changes the meaning entirely.

Philo would disagree with me, but I feel that the use of the subjunctive is on its last legs in BrE - except for those who consider themselves to be 'educated speakers'.

 

[Katz]

You're more than welcome, John - I must admit I enjoyed that thread immensely as I've also learned a lot. I never knew such differences in meaning exist between the two dialects of English. Our discussion will probably save me a lot of misunderstandings in the future. By the way, it seems that this difference in the usage of the subjunctive has been noted by others as well The BBC in language learning
separated by a common language: if need(s) be

It was just that I was helping one of my Spanish friends with her English and she asked me how I would translate that sentence (the original included the subjunctive, which in Spanish is far more complex than it is in English) and my first guess was (1). Then after a while I came up with (3), to which she gave me a puzzled look and told me she'd found (2) on the internet, to which my gut response was: "yeah, maybe it is used in writing but, if you ask me, people don't really say it this way". Anyway, now that I've sent her the link to this thread, she should have no problems expressing similar ideas in English. Nor will I, hopefully ;-)