an amount of the agent that was twice the dose typically prescribed

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Alexey86

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Hello! The following sentence is taken from https://ludwig.guru/s/an+amount+of+the+chemotherapeutic

"The studies, which appeared in The New England Journal of Medicine, examined cancer status
and rate of survival in patients given an amount of the chemotherapeutic agent daunorubicin that was twice the dose typically prescribed."

Why "an amount"? Doesn't the last part precisely define it?
 

SoothingDave

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How would you word it?
 

jutfrank

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This time, instead of trying to answer your questions, I'll try to work out where they're coming from.

Why "an amount"?

Tell me everything you already know about why we use indefinite articles.

Have you ever read, or considered reading, any literature on indefiniteness? There's quite a lot out there, and I think you're ready for it.
 

Alexey86

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Tell me everything you already know about why we use indefinite articles.

I'll lay out the list of all conditions/contexts for “a/an” I can remember. But above all, there is a strong requirement: a noun must be countable and singular. Here are the contexts (I will use "thing" instead of "noun"):

1) A thing represents an instance of a class/set of objects. The speaker has a certain image of the object in his mind, but the listener doesn’t: “I have a car (= a certain object belonging to the class of cars).”
a) The thing is mentioned for the first time = unknown and/or unidentifiable to the listener.
b) The thing is mentioned more the once, but its indefiniteness is maintained for the sake of logic and semantics: “I have a car” - “What car?” - “A fast one (= a certain, known only to me example belonging to the set of fast cars).”

2) A thing represents an instance of a class/set of objects. The speaker doesn’t have a certain image of the object in his mind: “I need a car (= any object belonging to the class of cars).”
a) The thing is mentioned for the first time = unknown and/or unidentifiable to the listener.
b) The thing is mentioned more the once, but its indefiniteness is maintained due to its genericness: “I need a car” - “Why do you need a car?” - “I need a car because there is no public transport here.”

3) A thing represents a whole class: “A lion is a dangerous animal.” It doesn't matter how many times it is mentioned in this sense. It’s indefiniteness is maintained due to its genericness.

4) We say “there is a/an” when introduce new information or make a general statement.

5) General statements with “have/has” require “a/an”: “Every circle has a diameter.”
We say, “This plane has a length of fifty meters,” but “This plane has the length of a football field”, and The length of this plane is...”

6) We can say “I’d like a beer/tea/coffee” instead of “a mug of beer”, “a cup of tea/coffee”. These are examples of metonymy.

7) “A/an” with proper nouns
a) “a/an + name” = some unknown person/thing to the speaker: "A John Smith (I’ve never heard of) called you yesterday."
b) “a/an + name” = an unusual or rare state of a person/thing: "Yesterday I met an angry John."
c) “a/an + name” = the most characteristic feature of a person/thing (metonymy): "He is an Einstein = He is a genius."
d) “a/an + name” = an artist’s/author's work (metonymy): "The museum bought a (work by) Rembrandt."

8) I've remembered an exception to the first strong requirement. We can use "a/an" in the "adjective + numerical + plural noun" structure: "We spent a good three years in Spain."

9) Neither the outer context nor the context within a sentence contains elements that make a thing definite: definite descriptions, previous mentioning, etc.

My point is that the sentence I’m asking about does contain such an element, i.e. the definite description "that was twice the dose typically prescribed."

Have you ever read, or considered reading, any literature on indefiniteness? There's quite a lot out there, and I think you're ready for it.

I've tried to read some academic papers, but it's a real challenge for me due to terminology. It would be difficult even in Russian, let alone English. But I keep on trying.
 
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Tdol

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I'd say

patients given twice the amount of the chemotherapeutic agent daunorubicin typically prescribed
 

SoothingDave

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With the original sentence, consider that the amount is indefinite prior to being further defined.

They were given an amount.

Oh, yeah? How much?

Twice the normal dose.
 

Alexey86

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With the original sentence, consider that the amount is indefinite prior to being further defined.

They were given an amount.

Oh, yeah? How much?

Twice the normal dose.

But this is a different context from the original one. Compare the following:

Context 1:

"What did you do yesterday?" - "I read a book?" - "What book?" - "The book N gave me for my birthday."

Contex 2:

"What did you do yesterday?" - "I read the book N gave me for my birthday."

You wouldn't use "a" in context 2, would you?
 
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jutfrank

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Okay, here are my answers, for what they're worth.

Why "an amount"?

Do you mean "Why not 'amount' or 'the amount'?" They would both be inappropriate because the speaker wishes to use an indefinite noun phrase.

Doesn't the last part precisely define it?

To an extent, yes, but so what? It's still indefinite.

Look, this is an indefinite noun phrase: a car

It's indefinite because it does not refer to anything specific in the real word. In semantics terms, it's not a 'referring expression' (although some would disagree with me)—it's just one theoretical member of the set of objects that you could label 'car'.

Now, you can continue to 'define' that noun phrase as much as you like, ad infinitum, but it will still always be indefinite, as long as it uses an indefinite article, because that is exactly what indefinite articles do.

a blue car
a blue car with a scratch on the hood
a sky blue 1999 Nissan with scratch on the hood and only 5000 miles on the clock

...

All you're doing by continuing in this way is narrowing the set of which this is a member. You're still not referring to anything.

Compare with using a definite article, making a definite noun phrase: the car

This is now completely different because you are referring to an actual, existing thing in the world. It's possible in theory to actually point with your finger to the object you're referring to.
 
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Alexey86

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Do you mean "Why not 'amount' or 'the amount'?"

I mean the latter.

It's indefinite because it does not refer to anything specific in the real word. In semantics terms, it's not a referring expression

That's the point! The sentence compares two referential things: the amount of medicine given and the dose that was typically prescribed. It's the latter that makes, or at least should make the former definite. It should work the same way as in my example in #7: the definite description "N gave me for my birthday" makes "book" definite.

We can also apply the examples form context 5) above:

“This plane has a length of fifty meters,” but “This plane has the length of a football field.”

"an amount of 10 ml" vs "the amount that is twice the dose we typically prescribed"
 
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jutfrank

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The sentence compares two referential things: the amount of medicine given and the dose that was typically prescribed.

I'm saying the first part (an amount) is not a referring expression. That's exactly why it's expressed with an indefinite article.

It's the latter that makes, or at least should make the former definite. It should work the same way as in my example in #7: the definite description "N gave me for my birthday" makes "book" definite.

No, all of that is wrong.

Both of the following are possible:

a book N gave me for my birthday
the book N gave me for my birthday


The first is indefinite and the second is definite.
 

Alexey86

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I'm saying the first part (an amount) is not a referring expression. That's exactly why it's expressed with an indefinite article.

But "an amount" doesn't play solo. "An amount of the agent" includes two nouns that together refer to a physical, tangible thing or substance, i.e. "agent." It's also true for "that was twice the dose typically prescribed" in which "the dose" is metonymy for "the dose of agent." Let's lable "agent" as "*." The sentence practically says, "Typically, doctors gave patients **. The studies...examined cancer status and rate of survival in patients given ****." I see no room for indefiniteness.

Maybe we can avoid being lost in the forest of explanations and clarifications again if you just explain to me how "the amount" will affect the meaning.

Both of the following are possible:

a book N gave me for my birthday
the book N gave me for my birthday


The first is indefinite and the second is definite.

I thought "a" implied that N had given me more than one book in contrast to "the" and fit context 1): A thing represents an instance of a class/set of objects = the books N gave me. In the case of "the book" the set = one book.
 
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jutfrank

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But "an amount" doesn't play solo. "An amount of the agent" includes two nouns that together refer to a physical, tangible thing or substance, i.e. "agent."

No, that's not right.

We can keep contradicting each other or we can stop there. You don't have to accept my answers, of course, but make up your mind whether you're asking me or telling me.
 

Alexey86

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No, that's not right.

We can keep contradicting each other or we can stop there. You don't have to accept my answers, of course, but make up your mind whether you're asking me or telling me.

I have two questions:

1) How will "the amount of" affect the meaning of the sentence, or how should the sentence be changed so that "the amount of" makes sense?
2) What do you think of my "a/the book" distinction?
 

jutfrank

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I have two questions:
1) How will "the amount of" affect the meaning of the sentence, or how should the sentence be changed so that "the amount of" makes sense?
2) What do you think of my "a/the book" distinction?

1) There are actually two questions here. I'll answer the first one again (the second question is not a good one): It would make the NP definite. It would mean that the amount is a referring expression. It would also be incorrect in the context of the passage, as it would effectively be identifying which amount is being referred to.

2) It's not very accurate, and therefore is of limited explanatory value. With both a book and the book there may be either one or more than one book, depending on context. The only distinction one can make from such scant context is that one is indefinite and the other definite.
 

Alexey86

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as it would effectively be identifying which amount is being referred to.

What I can't understand is why "of the chemotherapeutic agent daunorubicin that was twice the dose typically prescribed" isn't enough for the amount to be identified. What else is needed for it to be identified?

The only distinction one can make from such scant context is that one is indefinite and the other definite.

I don't understand what do you mean by "(in)definite" apart from the presence of "the" or "a". In both cases the book is obviously definite/known to me. I introduce new information to the listener. I thought when I said "the book N gave me for my birthday", I made it clear that this was the only book I had been given. If this interpretation is not accurate, I'm lost. Would you please explain what exactly do you mean by "(in)definite" in this case?
 
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jutfrank

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What I can't understand is why "of the chemotherapeutic agent daunorubicin that was twice the dose typically prescribed" isn't enough for the amount to be identified. What else is needed for it to be identified?

The part you have highlighted says something about the type of amount but it doesn't identify which amount in any way. Don't confuse identifying types with identifying things.

I don't understand what do you mean by "(in)definite" apart from the presence of "the" or "a".

That's why I suggest you do some reading up on this difficult subject.

In both cases the book is obviously definite/known to me.

That's irrelevant.

I introduce new information to the listener. I thought when I said "the book N gave me for my birthday", I made it clear that this was the only book I had been given.

Not necessarily. By using the book, you're making reference. You're just saying which book you mean. It's irrelevant how many books N gave you.

I'm lost.

Yes, I gather that!

Would you please explain what exactly do you mean by "(in)definite" in this case?

I already have: the book (definite) is a referring expression, which means it identifies which book the speaker is referring to, whereas a book (indefinite) is not a referring expression, which means that it does not refer to any actual, physical book that exists in the world—it relates only to a conceptual member of a conceptual set of real things.


  • a book = one possible member of the set of all books

  • a book N gave me = one possible member of the set of all books N gave me

  • the book N gave me = an actual book (the referent), being pointed out from all the other actual things in the world. (It's likely that the intention behind the reference here is to distinguish this actual book from other actual books. Whether these other actual books are also members of the set of all books N gave me is irrelevant.)

You can tell whether a noun phrase is definite or indefinite by the determiner it uses, or lacks. If an NP uses a definite article, it's a definite NP. If an NP has other NPs embedded in it, the determiner slot before the head determines its definiteness. That's why the NP in the OP is indefinite, despite containing two other definite NPs.
 
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Rover_KE

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Let's hear a round of applause for Jutfrank's patience and persistence.

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Alexey86

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Let's hear a round of applause for Jutfrank's patience and persistence.
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I hope it's not just about patience. Everyone is free to answer or not.

That's why I suggest you do some reading up on this difficult subject.

OK, I won't be asking about "the amount of" anymore.

it does not refer to any actual, physical book that exists in the world—it relates only to a conceptual member of a conceptual set of real things.

How can it be!? How is it possible to read a nonexistent book? When you say after reading a book, "I've read a book," don't you mean a real one?
 
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jutfrank

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OK, I won't be asking about "the amount of" anymore.

Okay, good. I don't think the example sentence we've been using here is simple enough to be a useful way to understand this difficult point.


How can it be!? How is it possible to read a nonexistent book? When you say after reading a book, "I've read a book," don't you mean a real one?

Okay, good—those are almost the right questions! Many semanticists and logicians and philosophers have shared your reaction to this. My own way of understanding this is that I don't mean a real one, no. I appreciate that's hard to understand and that I need to say more and I'll be very happy to discuss this particular point further, if you wish.

But I suggest you read some texts on this issue first, written by people who have thought about all this in much more depth than me. I couldn't find much relevant stuff online, but here's somewhere you could begin:

https://semanticsarchive.net/Archive/jA2YTJmN/Heim Dissertation with Hyperlinks.pdf

See in particular the section titled Do Indefinites Refer? If you don't understand any of the arguments, or the terminology, I'll be more than happy to explain.
 

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Yes, Piscean, that is exactly what I'm saying.
 
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