[Grammar] an instance where THE + A PLURAL NOUN would not mean all of them

[zorank]

Hello,

I am wondering whether there is a such example where the construct

THE + PLURAL NOUN

would not imply all members in the group discussed in a sentence.

The reason why I am asking is the following example.

Imagine a room, a table, and a bowl of apples.

If I say to someone:

"Please take the apples."

I've been told (in a separate thread, can't link it) that the person would understand that he/she can take all apples. I am wondering whether there is a counter example.

Is there a situation where if I would say so the person would automatically understnad that I am not offering all apples in the room?

Regards

Zoran

 

[5jj]

The simplest way is just to say, "Please take/have/help yourself to ...an apple/ a couple of apples.

 

[zorank]

Many thanks for trying to help me out.

I am asking in order to understand how to use the definite article with a plural noun.

In a way, I would not like to sound rude in any way, your answer/suggestion is certainly helpful but it is not addressing what I would like to know. The example is probably not the optimal one but this is the example that I discussed before and I have some feeling for.

 

[5jj]

Many thanks for trying to help me out. I am asking in order to understand how to use the definite article with a plural noun.
In a way, I would not like to sound rude in any way, your answer/suggestion is certainly helpful but it is not addressing what I would like to know.

It seems to me that what you would like to know is whether it is possible to utter a group of words that will normally be taken to mean one thing in such a way that they mean another. The answer is almost certainly 'yes', given a sufficiently convoluted context. However, in the situation you outlined, "Please take the apples" would normally be understood as an invitation to take all the apples. If that were not your intention, you would say, "Please take some apples",

 

[birdeen's call]

"The apples" are concrete apples which we distinguish from apples in general. If only some apples in the room or bowl are the apples, then the speaker is only inviting to take those particular apples. But yes, all of them.

 

[zorank]

It seems to me that what you would like to know is whether it is possible to utter a group of words that will normally be taken to mean one thing in such a way that they mean another. The answer is almost certainly 'yes', given a sufficiently convoluted context. However, in the situation you outlined, "Please take the apples" would normally be understood as an invitation to take all the apples. If that were not your intention, you would say, "Please take some apples",

Uhmps... I really blew it up, haven't I. The thing I would like to learn is whether there is an example where THE + PLURAL NOUN would mean a part of the group. I am not interested to learn how to offer apples, this was just an example, alas, completely inapropriate as it seems.

 

[zorank]

"The apples" are concrete apples which we distinguish from apples in general. If only some apples in the room or bowl are the apples, then the speaker is only inviting to take those particular apples. But yes, all of them.

hmmm... interesting. What if there are two bowls in the room, one red one blue, both with apples?

If I point at the red bowl and say

"Please take the apples."

that would mean not all apples in the room, right?

Now, how would an English speaking person react if I would NOT point and say

"Please take the apples."

Would the person understand "all apples" or would the person reply

"Excuse me, which apples do you mean?"

 

[5jj]

The definite article defines.

Clearly, if you say, "Take the apples in the bowl", you are not offering any other apples in the room, but if you just say, "Take the apples", then you are not talking about part of a group.

 

[zorank]

The definite article defines.

Clearly, if you say, "Take the apples in the bowl", you are not offering any other apples in the room, but if you just say, "Take the apples", then you are not talking about part of a group.

Thank you. This was an important example. I think I start to understand. This example is actually an eye opener. You are saying something really important!

The issue is about implicit knowledge that we share, isn't it? We are both in the room, and we are experiencing the situation we are talking about. This defines the scope of the full apple set.

If I say "the apples" and nothing else the person I am speaking to will implictily assume the largest possible set of apples in the room (I did not know this, hope I am understanding it correctly).

If I say "the apples + something that defines a subset of all apples in the room" then this would mean not all apples but the ones I have defined.

Strange, but interesting, nevertheless. There is a great deal of physiology in all this actually. If I say "the apples" and nothing else then the person I am talking to would start thinking, "which apples he means, oh yea it is the, so I should know about them, well the only apples I can know about are these apples in the room, which other apples could he possible have in mind, I'll take them all".

Many thanks again.

 

[zorank]

hmmm... interesting. What if there are two bowls in the room, one red one blue, both with apples?

If I point at the red bowl and say

"Please take the apples."

that would mean not all apples in the room, right?

Now, how would an English speaking person react if I would NOT point and say

"Please take the apples."

Would the person understand "all apples" or would the person reply

"Excuse me, which apples do you mean?"

If I understand correctly fivedejon's post, the person would understnad that I am referring to all apples in the room...

 

[birdeen's call]

I love this show: The Big Bang Theory - Sheldon lends Penny money - YouTube

Sheldon says, "Here, take some." If he said, "Here, take the money," he would definitely mean, "Take all of this money."

 

[5jj]

hmmm... interesting. What if there are two bowls in the room, one red one blue, both with apples?

If I point at the red bowl and say "Please take the apples." that would mean not all apples in the room, right?

Now, how would an English speaking person react if I would NOT point and say "Please take the apples."

Would the person understand "all apples" or would the person reply "Excuse me, which apples do you mean?"

We can play like this for hours, if you like. In real life, We try not to be too obtuse.

 

[zorank]

We can play like this for hours, if you like. In real life, We try not to be too obtuse.

This "game" is actually helping me to learn tremendeously! I understand that this might seem like a waste of time for an English speaking person, but for me it is really useful. Of course, I will fully understand if you would like to bail out. You already helped me a lot! Many thanks again!

 

[5jj]

This "game" is actually helping me to learn tremendeously! I understand that this might seem like a waste of time for an English speaking person, but for me it is really useful. Of course, I will fully understand if you would like to bail out. You already helped me a lot! Many thanks again!

You are the second person today who has suggested that I might like to bail out. This not infrequently happens when I begin to imply that questions are becoming just a little silly.

In real life, people try to make their intended meaning clear. If they are not clear, then either somebody asks for clarification, or there is misunderstanding.

Cases such as the one you are talking about rarely happen in real life, because the people concerned know what is being offered. If they don't, they ask. It is not realistic to discuss hypothetical situations and then ask what people would mean or understand.

It's time to stop now, before you go on to, "Say we have three bowls and I seem to point to only two...."

 

[zorank]

You are the second person today who has suggested that I might like to bail out. This not infrequently happens when I begin to imply that questions are becoming just a little silly.

In real life, people try to make their intended meaning clear. If they are not clear, then either somebody asks for clarification, or there is misunderstanding.

Cases such as the one you are talking about rarely happen in real life, because the people concerned know what is being offered. If they don't, they ask. It is not realistic to discuss hypothetical situations and then ask what people would mean or understand.

It's time to stop now, before you go on to, "Say we have three bowls and I seem to point to only two...."

I respectfully dissagree for two reasons.

(1) An additional clarification is possible in a conversation (oral). If one sends a document somewhere then better be right from the beginning.

(2) This is learning forum. I am also a teacher (natural sciences) and I put a student in focus. If a student hooks up to a game I keep it playing no matter how silly it sounds untill we drive it to an absurd end. Then people really learn. Here, I am a student This game helped me to learn (it was never about how to offer apples to someone).

There is no need for an extra bowl since I think that I understand now.

Thanks again!
Zoran

 

[5jj]

This game helped me to learn (it was never about how to offer apples to someone).
Indeed it wasn't.

There is no need for an extra bowl since I think that I understand now.

I do hope so.