Do English-speaking children study grammar in school?

Status
Not open for further replies.

diamondcutter

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2014
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
Since Chinese is an idiomatical not grammatical language, Chinese school children don’t or almost don’t study Chinese grammar. English is just the opposite, which is a grammatical language. I guess children whose native language is English also study English grammar in school. If I’m right, I’d like to know how much grammar the children study in school.
 

emsr2d2

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
I can only speak for my own experience, on the basis of which I would have to say "No". When I was at first/middle (now called primary/junior) school, the closest we came to grammar was occasionally, in English class, being asked to identify the nouns, verbs and adjectives in a sentence, and spotting punctuation errors. In secondary (high) school, we did no grammar whatsoever. I have no idea what's taught now as I don't know anyone with school-age kids.
 

jutfrank

VIP Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
There is no such distinction in linguistics as grammatical versus idiomatic languages. I wonder what on earth you might be thinking of.

Kids in English-speaking countries study barely any grammar, if any at all.
 

probus

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
Canada
This is only a guess on my part, bit I believe that Chinese languages lack verb tenses and articles. It is left to the listener or reader to work those things out from context. Perhaps that's the sort of thing @diamondcutter is referring to.

And speaking as an elderly person, I was certainly taught basic grammar at school. I gather that has since largely been done away with.
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
@diamondcutter Please tell me what you mean by "almost don't study". Do you mean they do it very little?

(I don't think "almost don't" is a thing.)
 

diamondcutter

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2014
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
China
Current Location
China
Hi, Tarheel.

I think "almost don't study" is Chinglish. I should have said "rarely study". Yes, they do it very little.

I read an article on the following website. It mentions a book named "Warriner's English Grammar and Composition". I'd like to know whether you've ever used or heard of it. I’m just curious.
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
No, I have never heard of that one before. (I do have a grammar book, but it was free, and I've never finished reading it.)

P.S. I read that article. (You'll never guess which sentence I would have written differently.)
 
Last edited:

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I'm sure they taught us a little grammar -- for example, the parts of speech. However, most native speakers learn language implicitly, not explicitly.

Teachers in this country are notoriously bad spellers, and they don't do a good job of teaching it. Many people graduate from high school or college not knowing the difference between one homophone and another, often getting everyday words mixed up.
 

probus

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
Canada
As I've mentioned in previous threads, grammar may be pedagogically useful for some learners. Native speakers don"t really need it because they have that intuitive grasp. And some native speakers simply enjoy the study of grammar. Our @Phaedrus comes to mind.
 

SoothingDave

VIP Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Yes. schools in America make an effort to teach grammar. In 6th grade we learned to diagram sentences.

What they do nowadays, I can't say for sure. But they certainly teach parts of speech.
 

Phaedrus

Banned
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Born in California in 1976, I was taught very little about English grammar as I went through primary and secondary school, the study of grammar having been largely phased out of the educational system by the 1980s and 1990s. (There is an interesting book about this phasing out of grammar, incidentally, titled The War against Grammar.) We youngsters were certainly taught the parts of speech, but we learned almost nothing about syntactic structure; I don't recall even being taught the active-passive distinction, let alone learning the ins and outs of relative clauses.

I took up the study of grammar after discovering that I had a talent for writing essays and editing the writing of others. I had even been hired as a writing tutor during my undergraduate years as a philosophy student. It began to bother me that I had little notion of the principles I was implicitly using in making editing decisions. I was seeking objectivity, the ability to say not simply that I think something should be rephrased in a certain way but that I know it needs to be rephrased in that way. This is not to deny, of course, that not all editing decisions are based on grammatical correctness!

After I had studied a good deal of (medium-strength) grammar on my own, I started trying to help nonnative speakers who had questions about English grammar. I found many of their questions profoundly interesting -- or, at times, frustratingly perplexing! This made me want to deepen my study of English grammar and also led me to go, ever so gradually, in the direction of ESL teaching. It was only after I started trying to answer English language learners' questions about English grammars that I sought out comprehensive grammars of the language and ultimately returned to (the) university to study transformational-generative grammar.

(Chinese does have grammar! One tough task I was given in an advanced syntax class was to figure out how relative clauses work in Chinese.)

Recently, I have taken up serious interest in the Reed-Kellogg diagramming system, taught to my parents in the 1950s. While I believe Reed-Kellogg diagramming to be inferior to the tree diagramming of linguists, I also believe that the relative simplicity of that system has pedagogical value; at least, I believe this to the extent that I am taking the risk of using the system, on occasion, in the grammar and composition ESL classes I now teach at a community college in California. I use it to illustrate relative clauses, grammatical parallelism, and things like why the verb is singular in a sentence like "A box of grapes is on the counter."
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
Stuff like criticism of Can I come in? was often met with I don't know if you can come in, but you may come in. Maybe it is just my memory, but I remember the pettifogging stuff like that more than I remember being taught much grammar.
 
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Chinese
Home Country
Taiwan
Current Location
Taiwan
Born in California in 1976, I was taught very little about English grammar as I went through primary and secondary school, the study of grammar having been largely phased out of the educational system by the 1980s and 1990s. (There is an interesting book about this phasing out of grammar, incidentally, titled The War against Grammar.) We youngsters were certainly taught the parts of speech, but we learned almost nothing about syntactic structure; I don't recall even being taught the active-passive distinction, let alone learning the ins and outs of relative clauses.

I took up the study of grammar after discovering that I had a talent for writing essays and editing the writing of others. I had even been hired as a writing tutor during my undergraduate years as a philosophy student. It began to bother me that I had little notion of the principles I was implicitly using in making editing decisions. I was seeking objectivity, the ability to say not simply that I think something should be rephrased in a certain way but that I know it needs to be rephrased in that way. This is not to deny, of course, that not all editing decisions are based on grammatical correctness!

After I had studied a good deal of (medium-strength) grammar on my own, I started trying to help nonnative speakers who had questions about English grammar. I found many of their questions profoundly interesting -- or, at times, frustratingly perplexing! This made me want to deepen my study of English grammar and also led me to go, ever so gradually, in the direction of ESL teaching. It was only after I started trying to answer English language learners' questions about English grammars that I sought out comprehensive grammars of the language and ultimately returned to (the) university to study transformational-generative grammar.

(Chinese does have grammar! One tough task I was given in an advanced syntax class was to figure out how relative clauses work in Chinese.)

Recently, I have taken up serious interest in the Reed-Kellogg diagramming system, taught to my parents in the 1950s. While I believe Reed-Kellogg diagramming to be inferior to the tree diagramming of linguists, I also believe that the relative simplicity of that system has pedagogical value; at least, I believe this to the extent that I am taking the risk of using the system, on occasion, in the grammar and composition ESL classes I now teach at a community college in California. I use it to illustrate relative clauses, grammatical parallelism, and things like why the verb is singular in a sentence like "A box of grapes is on the counter."

For the sake of curiosity, when did you first learn about dangling modifiers, comma splices, etc.?
 
Last edited:

Phaedrus

Banned
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
For the sake of curiosity, when did you first learn about dangling modifiers, comma splices, etc.?
I learned about those things explicitly some years after I had graduated with a B.A. I taught myself about them by reading grammar books. However, since I was already a writing tutor and freelance editor at the time, and had received a dean's award in college for a paper, I have no reason to believe that my writing suffered from any of those errors. To whatever extent I avoided those errors, I avoided them intuitively.
 

bettywnieves

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2022
Location
New York
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Born in California in 1976, I was taught very little about English grammar as I went through primary and secondary school, the study of grammar having been largely phased out of the educational system by the 1980s and 1990s. (There is an interesting book about this phasing out of grammar, incidentally, titled The War against Grammar.) We youngsters were certainly taught the parts of speech, but we learned almost nothing about syntactic structure; I don't recall even being taught the active-passive distinction, let alone learning the ins and outs of relative clauses.

I took up the study of grammar after discovering that I had a talent for writing essays and editing the writing of others. I had even been hired as a writing tutor during my undergraduate years as a philosophy student. It began to bother me that I had little notion of the principles I was implicitly using in making editing decisions. I was seeking objectivity, the ability to say not simply that I think something should be rephrased in a certain way but that I know it needs to be rephrased in that way. This is not to deny, of course, that not all editing decisions are based on grammatical correctness!

After I had studied a good deal of (medium-strength) grammar on my own, I started trying to help nonnative speakers who had questions about English grammar. I found many of their questions profoundly interesting -- or, at times, frustratingly perplexing! This made me want to deepen my study of English grammar and also led me to go, ever so gradually, in the direction of ESL teaching. It was only after I started trying to answer English language learners' questions about English grammars that I sought out comprehensive grammars of the language and ultimately returned to (the) university to study transformational-generative grammar.

(Chinese does have grammar! One tough task I was given in an advanced syntax class was to figure out how relative clauses work in Chinese.)

Recently, I have taken up serious interest in the Reed-Kellogg diagramming system, taught to my parents in the 1950s. While I believe Reed-Kellogg diagramming to be inferior to the tree diagramming of linguists, I also believe that the relative simplicity of that system has pedagogical value; at least, I believe this to the extent that I am taking the risk of using the system, on occasion, in the grammar and composition ESL classes I now teach at a community college in California. I use it to illustrate relative clauses, grammatical parallelism, and things like why the verb is singular in a sentence like "A box of grapes is on the counter."
I read your comment as a short story. No no, don't think that's a joke, I'm serious. Very interesting, I learned a lot of new things, like the Reed-Kellogg charting system.
Now I can't calm down, I really need to find out about it.
 

angelsdevins

Banned
Joined
Apr 26, 2022
Location
California
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I agree with some of the posts above. This is already more at an intuitive level for native speakers. Those who study the language are faced with the problem of grammar.
 

JustineKk

New member
Joined
May 25, 2022
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
Grammar is very important, but here in Poland it’s just too much of it. Choldren learn English for like 8-9years, they usually can’t speak fluent English but they can use passive voice, reported speech, conditionals and about 10 tenses🤦🏼
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Grammar is very important, but here in Poland there's just too much of it. Children learn English for like 8-9years,. They usually can’t speak fluent English, but they can use passive voice, reported speech, conditionals and about 10 tenses🤦🏼
Gee, I didn't know there were ten tenses..

(It doesn't seem like a very good system.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top