either man is rich

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Afit

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(1) Is "Either man is rich" idiomatic?

(2) If it is, would you explain why.

(3) If it is not, would you explain why not.

(4) Would you use simple language that even I could understand?

THANK YOU


There are two men on a bench. Ask them for $100. It does not matter which

one you ask. Either man is rich.

This would be okay:

You can choose either of them. Either way you get the money.
Both of them are rich.

This would be not okay:

Either man is rich.

---

(Not [a native] or [a linguistic professional])
 

Afit

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Either man is rich is a binomial operation, "either "being the operator, and A and B the operands.

binary :)
 

~Mav~

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[OFF]

There are no silly questions...
I've always wanted to ask you, Hedwig, do you crack your boiled egg at the big end or the little end? :mrgreen:


Sorry, I couldn't resist. :oops: Furthermore, I just plagiarised fivejedjon's reply to a similar post. ;-)


[/OFF]
 

Afit

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I've always wanted to ask you, Hedwig, do you crack your boiled egg at the big end or the little end? :mrgreen:

At either end. :)
 

TheParser

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Hello,



I'm a bit uncomfortable with "either man is rich', largely because it sounds odd in my own language, I guess. I'm accustomed to this word being used to imply "no matter which one of the two", but here we have "each of the two", which obviously means "both". So the question is: what's the point in saying 'either man is rich" when the message is "both of them are rich"?

***** NOT A TEACHER *****


(1) I have been trying everywhere to get an answer that is simple enough for

me to understand. I am a very slow learner.

(2) I have just gotten something from one source. It has helped me move

much closer to understanding why "Either man is rich" is not acceptable. My

source writes:

I think the simple answer is that "either" is used for alternatives or

choices. You can ask either man; that's an alternative. However, there

is no alternative or choice inherent in the fact that both men are rich.
 

birdeen's call

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Absolutely! :up: Thanks for the correction.



Yes.


I did not change my mind about this sentence. I changed my mind about the disjunctive meaning of "either" in "Either man can help you out." This "either" performs differently than the "either" in "Either man is rich".
I still don't understand. You're talking about a sentence that all of the native speakers here consider wrong. You say it's correct and give it a meaning. This is why I want to see a justification of your statements.

You say that

Either man is rich.


means

One of the men is rich.

where "one" could be interpreted as either "exactly one" or "at least one". The native speakers who posted here seem to disagree. You must have reasons for your opinion but you haven't revealed them yet.
 

suprunp

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***** NOT A TEACHER *****


I think the simple answer is that "either" is used for alternatives or

choices. You can ask either man; that's an alternative. However, there

is no alternative or choice inherent in the fact that both men are rich.

NOT A TEACHER
Either
In OE. and early ME. the word appears only in its original sense ‘each of two’, or as adv. = ‘both’; but about the beginning of 14th c. it assumed the disjunctive sense ‘one or the other of two’ (and the corresponding adverbial use), which properly belonged to OE. áhwæðer, áwðer, ME. owþer, oþer (see outher). This disjunctive sense has so far prevailed that in mod.Eng. such expressions as on either side = ‘on both sides’ are felt to be somewhat arch., and must often be avoided on account of their ambiguity.
OED
Just to amplify what TheParser's source writes.
 

Verona_82

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Thank you to all for your input! I really appreciate that. I must confess I failed to understand most of the operands/truth values discussion, but it think I managed to get the idea why the original sentence is wrong.

Sometimes simple things can be so difficult to explain.

The author of the grammar should feel ashamed.
 
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birdeen's call

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I have been thinking about all of this for some time now and I believe I have come to understand it a little bit better -- although still not fully. Here is what I think. It's going to be long so I will understand if nobody reads it, but I do hope somebody does.

The main question is

Why can't we say, "Either man is rich"?

We can say

1) Both men are rich.

or

2) Every one of the two men is rich.

(the last being awful, but meaningful and grammatical) but

3) Either man is rich.

doesn't sound right However, we can say either of the following.

4) Either man can help you.

5) Both men can help you.

and perhaps

6) Every one of the two men can help you.


The problem of these three sentences is particularly difficult for me because they don't want to fit my newly created theory (newly for me obviously -- if it's anywhere near the truth, someone has certainly thought of this before). I will leave them for now. I'd like to take a look at some other sentences first.

"Either", "both" and "every one of the two" clearly refer to two objects. It seems natural to me to try to find their "more plural" counterparts and try to find an explanation that would encompass those too. I think those counterparts are, respectively, "any", "all" and "every". I think

either = any of the two
both = all of the two

and, well,

every one of the two
= every one of the two

since there is no specifically dual version of "every". This doesn't seem to be a problem though because "both" serves this purpose well. It does differ from "every" in that it is plural as a pronoun and takes plural nouns as a modifier -- unlike "every". It doesn't seem to affect the meaning very much though. It looks as if

Both man are rich.
= Every one of the two men is rich.

I think this leaves us with the necessity of comparing these two groups of words

either, any

and

both, every.

Let's focus on "any" and "every" first. The following sentences are correct.

7) I do not see any cat.

8) I do not see every cat.

These sentences clearly mean two different things. Suppose we have an enumeration of all cats in the world. Let's denote the number of all cats by n (which must be, of course, the number of the last cat in our enumeration.)
Then, I think, 7) means exactly the same as

(It is not true that I see cat number 1) and (it is not true that I see cat number 2) and ... and (it is not true that I see cat number n).

and 8) means exactly the same as

It is not true that [(I see cat number 1) and (I see cat number 2) and ... and (I see cat number n)].

Whoever remembers De Morgan's laws will recognize these two as different. The first tells us that there is no cat that I see. The second tells us that there is at least one cat that I don't see. Anyway, what seems important to me is that the two differ only in the placement of "it is not true that".

Let's call atomic the statements

I see cat number 1.
I see cat number 2.
...
I see cat number
n.

Let's call "it is not true that" an operator. Then 7) applies the operator "it is not true that" to every atomic statement and then "ands" them all together, 8) first "ands" the atomic statements together and then applies the operator "it is not true that" to the resulting big "anded" statement.

Let's take next two sentences..

9) Any boy in this room may be your brother.

10) Every boy in this room may be your brother.

The second sentence seems ambiguous to me, but it apparently doesn't seem such to Robert Stoothoff. I will use what I understand to be his understanding (note that I can see only the first page of what I have linked to though), at least for now.

Again, let's imagine the boys are enumerated and there are n of them. Then, I think, 9) means exactly the same as

(It may be that boy number 1 is your brother) and (it may be that boy number 2 is your brother) and ... and (it may be that boy number n is your brother).

and 10) becomes

It may be that [(boy number 1 is your brother) and (boy number 2 is your brother) and ... and (boy number n is your brother)].

If we call "it may be that" an operator and if we call atomic the statements

Boy number 1 is your brother.
By number 2 is your brother.
...
Boy number n is your brother.


then we can see that the structures are analogous to the stractures that we produced for 7) and 8).

If we accept all that has been said so far, we can make a hypothesis that when there is in a sentence something that works like "it is not true that" or "it may be that" (we may agree to call this something an operator) then what happens when "any" is present is

1. we generate a number of statements that we call atomic;
2. we apply the operator to every atomic statement;
3. we "and" the resulting statements together.

What happens when "every" is present is

1. we generate a number of statements that we call atomic;
2. we "and" the atomic statements together;
3. we apply the operator to the resulting statement.

The first step in both doesn't seem real to me. It's an auxiliary step which is there merely to make the analysis easier. The other steps seem to be actually occuring in our sentences. I think it makes sense to say that

- step 2 of the first list and step 3 of the second are simply "what the operator does";

- step 2 of the second list and step 3 of the first are simply "what 'any' and 'every' do".

The simple conclusion would be that "any" works after operators and "every" works before them.

Now, of the two following sentences, only the first sounds right.

Everyone is in the living room.

Anyone is in the living room.


The only thought these two could express is

(The person number 1 is in the living room) and (The person number 2 is in the living room) and ... and (The person number n is in the living room)

There is nothing here that looks like an operator so we cannot make the distinction we made before. But "any" needs an operator to work before it. Therefore,. "any" cannot be used here.

I think it's clear what I want to do next. "Either" is a dual version of "any" and "both" is a dual version of "every" (although it's different in the grammatical number), so the same hold s for them. We can't say

Either man is rich.

because there is no operator in this sentence and "either", like "any" needs an operator.

I'm very tired now, so I won't get back to 4), 5) and 6). I will appreciate and try to understand any comments on what I've written and on what I haven't. I'm not satisfied with the above. It's too long, inelegant (although much more elegant than my previous thoughts) and doesn't answer all the questions I can ask about this (and probably others, which I can't ask).


.
 
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birdeen's call

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I made a couple of mistakes in the previous post. It is now edited.

step 3 of the second list and step 2 of the first are simply "what 'any' and 'every' do".

now reads

step 2 of the second list and step 3 of the first are simply "what 'any' and 'every' do".
 

Raymott

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I’ve made a few observations, bc. I hope they’re pertinent. Like your post, my ideas are not fully worked out.

There actually is a specific dual form of ‘every’ – ‘each’.
I’d suggest you write “each one of the two” (“Every” for more than two). In this way you would have “either, both, each one” corresponding to “any, all, every.”

either = any of the two
both = all of the two

each one of the two = every one of the two

then we can see that the structures are analogous to the structures that we produced for 7) and 8).
Except that 7 and 8 are negative sentences, and the logical equivalences of positive and negative statements aren’t the same, as you know.

7) I do not see either cat.
8) I do not see both cats
. (Ambiguous, as is “all cats”) Could mean:
i) I see one cat, but not both ii)Both cats are unseen. Problem with exclusive/inclusive “both”

9) Each boy in this room may be your brother.
10) Both boys in this room may be your brother
. Similar problem.
Unfortunately, this can mean “Either or both boys may be your brother”.

"Either" is a dual version of "any" and "both" is a dual version of "every”.
But above you’ve corresponded ‘either’ to ‘any’ and ‘both’ to ‘all’ (not ‘every’, which would correspond to the dual version ‘each’ if you made the substitution I suggested).

I think the main thing you haven’t covered is the ambiguity of some of these words, as I demonstrated above. And now that I’ve read the thread again, as I note Afit has already demonstrated just as well. Like the OR in propositional logic, they can be inclusive (OR) or exclusive (XOR).

Either man can help you. Either of the men can help you.
This usually means A can help you OR B can help you. “A OR B can help you.”
But sometimes it means “Either A or B (but not both) can help you, “A XOR B can help you”
For example, “Either John or Peter can help you” could be an OR or an XOR ‘either’.
Note this subtle linguistic change from “Either of the men” to “Either John or Peter”. The ‘or’ changes the logical possibilities of ‘either’.

Similarly “Both men can help you” can mean “A AND B can help you” or “A OR B can help you”, but not XOR.

There is also the problem of whether “Either man can help you.” means “Either of the men can help you.” And whether “Either one of those men is rich” is any more acceptable than “Either man is rich” (I think not).

No doubt, you’re getting to that. ;-)
 

Hedwig

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I told you, Verona. There are no silly questions. A silly question couldn't possibly have generated a thread like this one. I`ll have to go through it again to make sure I've understood. :crazyeye:
 

birdeen's call

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Hi, Raymott. Sorry I couldn't reply earlier. I couldn't find a moment to sit and write a post.

I’ve made a few observations, bc. I hope they’re pertinent. Like your post, my ideas are not fully worked out.

There actually is a specific dual form of ‘every’ – ‘each’.
I’d suggest you write “each one of the two” (“Every” for more than two). In this way you would have “either, both, each one” corresponding to “any, all, every.”

either = any of the two
both = all of the two

each one of the two = every one of the two
I decided to leave "each" alone because I found it difficult to handle so many words at once. This is also why I mentioned "all" only once. I should have said it clearly but I'm not sure I'm losing anything because of this. My basic thought was two group "either" and "any" in one set and the rest in another. My hypothesis is that for the purpose of this analysis "either" and "any" have the same function, and "both", "every", "each" and "all" have the same, another, function as well. I wanted to keep off the particular characteristics of those as much as possible.The ambiguities you are pointing out later on seem to weaken the hypothesis though. I was aware there could be ambiguities in sentences using those words. Unfortunately, I was too exhausted to talk about them then. I'm glad you want to do it now. :)

then we can see that the structures are analogous to the structures that we produced for 7) and 8).
Except that 7 and 8 are negative sentences, and the logical equivalences of positive and negative statements aren’t the same, as you know.
In the previous post I was trying to argue that this doesn't actually matter -- that the functions "add modality to statement" and "negate statement" (and perhaps something else) behave the same way with "any", "every", etc.
7) I do not see either cat.
8) I do not see both cats
. (Ambiguous, as is “all cats”) Could mean:
i) I see one cat, but not both ii)Both cats are unseen. Problem with exclusive/inclusive “both”

9) Each boy in this room may be your brother.
10) Both boys in this room may be your brother
. Similar problem.
Unfortunately, this can mean “Either or both boys may be your brother”.
What does 7) mean to you? Is it unambiguous?

I would like to dwell on 8). It looks as if this is the same ambiguity I mentioned in the previous post (although I said nothing about other than that I think it it exists). According to my hypothesis

I do not see both cats.

should be analyzed as follows

It is not true that [(I see cat number 1) and (I see cat number 2)].

because

a) "both" works like "every";
b) "every" works before "it is not true that".

This is actually neither of your i) and ii). This is

iii) At least one cat is unseen.

Having thought about it for a couple of minutes, I do think that this is the interpretation a lawyer would have to make. When I say this sentence to myself without stressing any words

I -- DO -- NOT -- SEE -- BOTH -- CATS

and think what it really means, I think it means iii). However, I cannot imagine a person actually meaning this by the sentence in everyday speech. I agree that it would be either i) or ii) and I think intonation would be decisive. I can't think of any methods of dealing with such ambiguities in natural languages. They're a necessity though with so few grammatical conjunctions. i) is not something my analysis allows at all and it's only natural that one wants to express this sometimes. Intepretation ii) can be analyzed this way

(It it not true that I see cat 1) and (it is not true that I see cat 2).

which is exactly the meaning I would like to give to

I do not see either cat.

according to what I wrote before. And I do think it's a better way of expressing the idea. Do you?

I would like to leave i) with its intractability. ii) is what bothers me more.

Have a look at Robert Stoothoff's assertion. He says that the following inference is invalid and apparently considers it obvious.

Any day of the year 1963 may be my birthday.
/ Every day of the year 1963 may be my birthday.



Do you agree it's invalid? I'm not sure I do. As I said before, I consider the second statement ambiguous in English. And I think this is the same kind of ambiguity your ii) reveals.

The invalidity of this inference would be an argument for my simplistic hypothesis. But I do actually think that the first and the second statement could well be interpreted the same way in everyday speech, which would make the inference correct. What do you think about it? I think Stoothoff thinks

Every day [...] may be my birthday.

means

It may be that [(1 January is my birthday) and (2 January is my birthday) and ... and (31 December is my birthday)].

This is consistent with my previous post. However, I do think this sentence could be interpreted as

(It may be that 1 January is my birthday) and (It may be that 2 January is my birthday) and ... and (It may be that 31 December is my birthday).

which would weaken both my hypothesis and Stoothoff's assertion. Do you think the first interpretation is or should be preferred?

"Either" is a dual version of "any" and "both" is a dual version of "every”.
But above you’ve corresponded ‘either’ to ‘any’ and ‘both’ to ‘all’ (not ‘every’, which would correspond to the dual version ‘each’ if you made the substitution I suggested).
Yes, but again, I didn't consider it very important for the main thought. I think the ambiguities are similar for all of these.

I think the main thing you haven’t covered is the ambiguity of some of these words, as I demonstrated above. And now that I’ve read the thread again, as I note Afit has already demonstrated just as well. Like the OR in propositional logic, they can be inclusive (OR) or exclusive (XOR).

Either man can help you. Either of the men can help you.
This usually means A can help you OR B can help you. “A OR B can help you.”
But sometimes it means “Either A or B (but not both) can help you, “A XOR B can help you”
For example, “Either John or Peter can help you” could be an OR or an XOR ‘either’.
Note this subtle linguistic change from “Either of the men” to “Either John or Peter”. The ‘or’ changes the logical possibilities of ‘either’.

Similarly “Both men can help you” can mean “A AND B can help you” or “A OR B can help you”, but not XOR.
I must say I don't understand this. There seems to be a confusion of the word "or" and the logical operator "OR". Logical operators cannot take people as their operands. I think we have to be careful about this. It's difficult for me to interpret, for example,

A AND B can help you.

It's ambiguous to me and, because the "AND" cannot be the standard logical operator, I don't have a point reference.
 
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