I have been facing the system issue since the starting of the shift.

[tufguy]

1) I have been facing the system issue since the starting of the shift.
2) I have been facing the system issue since the start of the shift.

Which one is correct?
Is it also correct to say "My system has been facing an issue" instead of "I have been facing the system issue"?

 

[emsr2d2]

1) I have been facing the system issue since the starting start of the shift.
2) I have been facing the system issue since the start of the shift.

Which one is correct?
Is it also correct to say "My system has been facing an issue" instead of "I have been facing the system issue"?

If you want to start with "I have", say "I have had an issue with my system since the start of my shift" or "I have been having an issue with my system ...".
If you want to start with "My system", say "My system has not been working/functioning properly since the start of my shift".

There's no need to say that you or the system is "facing" anything.

Who are you saying this to? If it's a message to the IT team where you work, you'll need to be more specific. Tell them exactly what the system is or isn't doing properly.

 

[tufguy]

If you want to start with "I have", say "I have had an issue with my system since the start of my shift" or "I have been having an issue with my system ...".
If you want to start with "My system", say "My system has not been working/functioning properly since the start of my shift".

There's no need to say that you or the system is "facing" anything.

Who are you saying this to? If it's a message to the IT team where you work, you'll need to be more specific. Tell them exactly what the system is or isn't doing properly.

Could you please tell me why "start" not "starting"? What is the reason?

 

[emsr2d2]

Because "starting" is not a noun so you can't say "the starting of the shift".

 

[Annabel Lee]

Could you please tell me why "start" not "starting"? What is the reason?

"The starting of" is not as natural as "the start of," mainly, I think, because "start" is already a noun and there is no need to use a derived noun, or gerund ("the starting of"), but also because we already have the -ing noun "beginning" for that purpose ("the beginning of the shift"; "from the beginning"). Moreover, "the starting of" would more naturally be used in cases where there is an implied transitive meaning (something that is being started), as in "the starting of the engine."

. . . you can't say "the starting of the shift".

It may not be the best choice of words, but I see nothing wrong with it grammatically. Do you? We derive nouns by means of -ing with many other verbs regardless of whether the -ing forms are lexical nouns. Take "watering," for example. It's not a lexical noun, and yet we can speak of "the watering of the lawn." Other examples: "the watching of TV," "the reading of a poem," "the prancing and pawing of each little hoof."

 

[tufguy]

"The starting of" is not as natural as "the start of," mainly, I think, because "start" is already a noun and there is no need to use a derived noun, or gerund ("the starting of"), but also because we already have the -ing noun "beginning" for that purpose ("the beginning of the shift"; "from the beginning"). Moreover, "the starting of" would more naturally be used in cases where there is an implied transitive meaning (something that is being started), as in "the starting of the engine."

It may not be the best choice of words, but I see nothing wrong with it grammatically. Do you? We derive nouns by means of -ing with many other verbs regardless of whether the -ing forms are lexical nouns. Take "watering," for example. It's not a lexical noun, and yet we can speak of "the watering of the lawn." Other examples: "the watching of TV," "the reading of a poem," "the prancing and pawing of each little hoof."

So, is it correct to say "I have had a system issue since the beginning of the shift"?

 

[Annabel Lee]

So, is it correct to say "I have had a system issue since the beginning of the shift"?

Yes.

 

[emsr2d2]

So, is it correct to say "I have had a system issue since the beginning of the shift"?

Yes. "Beginning" is a noun but "starting" is not.

 

[Annabel Lee]

"Beginning" is a noun but "starting" is not.

"Starting" is a noun in phrases like "the starting of the shift." The noun is formed from the verb by the addition of -ing.

 

[jutfrank]

When the meaning is a point, such as the initial point of the duration of an event, we use the noun 'start', not 'starting'. Contrarily, and confusingly, with the very same meaning, we use 'beginning' and not 'begin'.

At the start of the lesson, we discussed politics.
At the beginning of the lesson, we discussed politics.

At the begin of the lesson, we discussed politics.
At the starting of the lesson, we discussed politics.

 

[Annabel Lee]

When the meaning is a point, such as the initial point of the duration of an event, we use the noun 'start', not 'starting'.

That's a nice explanation, Jutfrank. It does cause me to wonder about the naturalness of phrases like "the starting of the engine" and "the starting of a clock," though, where the noun "starting" would seem to pick out a point of time; however, I suppose we could say that, since "clock" and "engine" refer to mechanical devices rather than to durative events, the fact that they continue running after being started does not imply that "starting" in those phrases picks out the beginning of a durative event. Or is this splitting hairs? In any case, from my standpoint, it was simply important that "starting" be acknowledged to be a noun in phrases like "the starting of the shift" and "the starting of the engine," which are not ungrammatical.

 

[Annabel Lee]

At the starting of the lesson, we discussed politics.

Here's an interesting case with "starting of lessons," which includes adjective modification by "official," further confirming the grammatical status of "starting" as a noun in such "-ing of" phrases. The adverb "officially" would be ungrammatical.

"At primary and lower secondary level there are often pre- and post-school activities organized by external organization within the spaces of the schools. These activities are organised in order to meet the needs of parents who work and need to leave their children at school before the official starting of lessons" (emphasis mine).

Do you find that example incorrect, Jutfrank? Without a doubt, "start" could be used instead of "starting," but must it?

 

[jutfrank]

It does cause me to wonder about the naturalness of phrases like "the starting of the engine" and "the starting of a clock," though, where the noun "starting" would seem to pick out a point of time;

I don't think it picks out a point in time. It's inchoative—it picks out an action, or rather the enaction of an action, if you get what I mean.

however, I suppose we could say that, since "clock" and "engine" refer to mechanical devices rather than to durative events, the fact that they continue running after being started does not imply that "starting" in those phrases picks out the beginning of a durative event. Or is this splitting hairs?

I think that's right. It's not a durative event.

In any case, from my standpoint, it was simply important that "starting" be acknowledged to be a noun in phrases like "the starting of the shift" and "the starting of the engine," which are not ungrammatical.

Yes, I fully agree that those gerunds should be considered nouns.

 

[jutfrank]

"At primary and lower secondary level there are often pre- and post-school activities organized by external organization within the spaces of the schools. These activities are organised in order to meet the needs of parents who work and need to leave their children at school before the official starting of lessons" (emphasis mine).

Do you find that example incorrect, Jutfrank? Without a doubt, "start" could be used instead of "starting," but must it?

No, I don't have any issue with this. I presume that the person writing this chose 'starting' over 'start' for a reason. The -ing form there could refer not to the beginning point of the class but rather to the teacher's initiation of the lesson, which is action (or enaction, rather).

 

[Annabel Lee]

Very interesting. I think the basic difference you are proposing, Jutfrank, is that "the starting of X" refers to X's being started; the inchoative meaning, fascinating though it is, has to do with the meaning of the verb "start," from which the derived noun "starting" is derived. Consider these two cases:

the singing of the song
the singing of the choir

Emsr2d2 will be comfortable with both of those phrases, because "singing" is a lexical noun. "The singing of the song" refers to the song's being sung, not to the song's singing (absurd). "The singing of the choir," in contrast, refers to the choir's singing, not to the choir's being sung (absurd). Common sense serves as our guide. But what about this?

the burning of the wood

Emr2d2 would presumably find that phase grammatically incorrect, because "burning" is not a lexical noun. Am I correct in thinking that you would say that, although "the burning of the wood" is grammatical, it must refer to the wood's being burned rather than to the wood's burning? I myself would say that the phrase is grammatical and can have either meaning.

 

[jutfrank]

I think the basic difference you are proposing, Jutfrank, is that "the starting of X" refers to X's being started;

I mean to say that it could mean that, not that it must. This is because 'start' is ergative. In the example you linked, I would naturally interpret that there's an implied agent (a teacher) doing the starting.

Regardless of whether there's an agent of the verb, I think that generally speaking, when any verb is in an -ing form, including when functioning as a gerund noun, it denotes some kind of action or state rather than a point in space or time. When the verb is inchoative, as is always the case with 'start', it denotes enaction.

Am I correct in thinking that you would say that, although "the burning of the wood" is grammatical, it must refer to the wood's being burned rather than to the wood's burning? I myself would say that the phrase is grammatical and can have either meaning.

No, I'd say it was perfectly grammatical and can have either an agentive or an inchoative meaning, since 'burn' is also an ergative verb.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Regardless of whether there's an agent of the verb, I think that generally speaking, when any verb is in an -ing form, including when functioning as a gerund noun, it denotes some kind of action or state rather than a point in space or time. When the verb is inchoative, as is always the case with 'start', it denotes enaction.

To bring the thread full circle, it seems to me that Tufguy's (1) would be absolutely fine in a highly specialized context. Prison guards, at least in the U.S., sometimes take prisoners out to perform hard labor, such as digging ditches by the side of a highway. Such crews used to be called "chain gangs." One can only suppose that their work shifts are initialized at will by the prison guards, who surely use computer technology to communicate with the prison. Let's suppose the prison's computer system has been having an issue; a prison guard supervising a chain gang's work shift might be practically and grammatically justified in saying, "I have been facing the system issue since the starting of the shift."