Problems with Verbs... (Part 3of my blog)

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DarrenTomlyn

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There is no such thing as opinion in regards to the basis of this question, answer and its ramifications. They either exist or they do not - no middle ground. If you want to deny the existence of THOUSANDS of existing words/basic means of communication in the English language then that's up to you.

This isn't rocket science...

So what 5 concepts does the English language have that causes the manner of use we label noun?
 

MikeNewYork

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<<<There is no such thing as opinion in regards to the basis of this question, answer and its ramifications. They either exist or they do not - no middle ground.>>>

Just another opinion.
 

DarrenTomlyn

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<<<There is no such thing as opinion in regards to the basis of this question, answer and its ramifications. They either exist or they do not - no middle ground.>>>

Just another opinion.

**** off. If you want to deny the very existence of every single word in the English language - go ahead - because that's what you're talking about.

THE EXISTENCE OF LANGUAGE IS NOT MY OPINION.

THE EXISTENCE OF ENGLISH IS NOT MY OPINION.

THE EXISTENCE AND THE USE OF WORDS BY EVERYONE IN THE LANGUAGE - INCLUDING YOURSELF - IS NOT MY OPINION.

THE EXISTENCE OF BASIC CONCEPTS (THINGS/PROPERTIES OF THINGS ETC.) IS NOT MY OPINION.

THE EXISTENCE OF THE BASIC MANNERS OF USE OF SUCH CONCEPTS (NOUN/VERB/ADJECTIVE ETC.) IS NOT MY OPINION.


To call such things my opinion IS TO DENY THE VERY EXISTENCE OF SCIENCE, AND ALL IT ENCOMPASSES, including the social sciences of language and psychology, etc..

Although this could be seen as a matter of philosophy, such matters HAVE ALREADY BEEN DECIDED - COLLECTIVELY - and are no longer a matter of INDIVIDUAL OPINION.

Linguistics is about studying such COLLECTIVE use to find out what has already BEEN decided - in a manner that recognises and understands the context that the basic functionality and definition of language gives us. If that is problematic - as it is - then it should be no surprise when people think that language is INDIVIDUALLY subjective, (and therefore no different from communication) - when it can never function and therefore exist in such a manner.

The only matters that need discussing, that are a matter of individual opinion, are how we agree to describe and label that which the language already has. But that has never been the focus of your argument.
 

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<<<The only matters that need discussing, that are a matter of individual opinion, are how we agree to describe and label that which the language already has. But that has never been the focus of your argument.>>>

Of course it has. "Is" is a verb. You have repeatedly denied that. But it is a verb nonetheless.
 

DarrenTomlyn

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<<<The only matters that need discussing, that are a matter of individual opinion, are how we agree to describe and label that which the language already has. But that has never been the focus of your argument.>>>

Of course it has. "Is" is a verb. You have repeatedly denied that. But it is a verb nonetheless.

The last question I asked is FAR GREATER and far more serious than merely recognising the concept for the word is, but has massive ramifications for it, anyway:

How many concepts are used as NOUNS in the ENGLISH LANGUAGE?

THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF OPINION BUT A STATEMENT OF OBJECTIVE FACT BASED ON THE ACCEPTED CONTENT OF THE LANGUAGE WE USE TODAY, NOW.

For your understanding of the language to be consistent and correct, this question can only have one answer:

1. Things
2. nothing
3. nothing
4. nothing
5. nothing

Because your understanding of language is not consistent with noun and verb being a manner of use at all - merely basic concepts in their own right.

For more than one concept to be used in an identical manner, you would have to accept that there is a difference - SYSTEMATICALLY - between such concepts and the SINGLE, BASIC, manners of use they cause, (which there are, as applications of semantics and syntactics).

As soon as we recognise that the two uses of is, as I described in my post above, belong to the same concept - the rules governing their manner of use also become clear: they cannot be different.

(There is only ONE way, in which I feel the same concept could possibly be given two distinct manners of use, based on its application, and that is if we decide that keeping the distinction between things and things that happen is more important than recognising that there is a single concept used in combination with both - (e.g. relative time/space) - but I feel this would be the wrong approach to take, for it would still be inconsistent with how all the other concepts are treated, (especially the most basic of all.))

Either there is a distinction between concepts and manners of use or there is not - and the obvious evidence of the language as it plainly exists says that there is. Your understanding is inconsistent with this, and is therefore problematic/inconsistent and inaccurate (wrong).

If you had a full, complete and consistent understanding of language IN GENERAL, and recognised and understood how and why it functioned, you would know that answering my question would be fairly easy to do - it's a very simple matter of linguistic study, of a language that you should already know more than enough of, anyway.

So what other concepts are used as nouns in English?

Any failure to understand the answer to this question, is therefore a FAILURE to understand the basic functionality of the English Language itself, as a fairly simple application of what language must be, irrespective of the problems in consistency with its representations in different forms - (which are problems with its application as English, more than language). It would also be a demonstrative failure to truly recognise and understand linguistics itself, at which point, the entire context of your replies becomes moot.

If you refuse to accept that there even are any such concepts - then I have to ask you to leave this forum behind, for it is not the place for you. Denying the existence of such a large part of the language we are using, (again, thousands of words/basic means of communication, many in common, everyday use), on a forum/site dedicated to its teaching and study, is not going to work out well for you.

EDIT: Given that my question has no consistent answer at this time, on behalf of ANYONE/EVERYONE studying/who has studied the English language, (apart from me), however, should give you some idea of just how fundamental our current failure of linguistics truly is.
 

MikeNewYork

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Your concept of "noun" is very simplistic.

<<<f you refuse to accept that there even are any such concepts - then I have to ask you to leave this forum behind, for it is not the place for you. >>>

LOL! Who died and left you boss? You can barely handle posting in one thread.
 

Tdol

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EDIT: Given that my question has no consistent answer at this time, on behalf of ANYONE/EVERYONE studying/who has studied the English language, (apart from me), however, should give you some idea of just how fundamental our current failure of linguistics truly is.

There just might be other possible views, given that not all of the many thousands of linguists who have dedicated their lives to the study of language, along with the millions who are interested and committed enthusiasts, have been complete fools.

If I could be so bold as to make a suggestion, it might help if you clarified your terminology in standard terms. I am afraid that the only part of the following that I do understand is the bit suggesting I am wrong:

Either there is a distinction between concepts and manners of use or there is not - and the obvious evidence of the language as it plainly exists says that there is. Your understanding is inconsistent with this, and is therefore problematic/inconsistent and inaccurate (wrong).
 
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DarrenTomlyn

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There just might be other possible views, given that not all of the many thousands of linguists who have dedicated their lives to the study of language, along with the millions who are interested and committed enthusiasts, have been complete fools.

If I could be so bold as to make a suggestion, it might help if you clarified your terminology in standard terms. I am afraid that the only part of the following that I do understand is the bit suggesting I am wrong:

EDIT: From what I can tell, the standard terms we require do not exist. (As representations of basic concept/manner of use) - if they're even necessary?

What I've written in my blog should provide all the context that is necessary for this to be understood, but let's try again, okay?

Let's start from scratch:


Do you recognise and understand the difference between:

A. What a piece of information is of
B. A piece of information itself (of something)
C. A representation for such a piece of information?

The thing/plant we call a tree, exists independently of humanity itself, and any information we have of it, yes? (They even pre-date our existence.)

We use the representation of tree for information of this particular thing, yes - we don't use it as a direct representation of the object itself, else every time we use the word, we'd be passing such things around between us, yes?

Since trees exist regardless of humanity, in general, we now have multiple different representations for such a thing in different languages, yes? This must mean that we can have multiple different representations for the same piece of information, of the same thing, yes?

Semiosis is about the perception of the representation of information, in general. Since we can perceive such information being represented in the universe around us, (e.g. wet ground (what it is/presents) being caused by rain (what it represents/means)), it does not require the presence of any other entity.

Inherent to the representation of information are two things:

Semantics: This is the recognition that the representation of information requires the existence of both elements, (representation + information), used in combination. Each individual combination, regardless of manner of existence and application, automatically has a rule governing the combination itself. All rules that DEFINE what these combinations are, are therefore rules of semantics.

Pragmatics: The representation of information does not, nor cannot, exist in isolation. It requires something to represent such information (a medium used), along with a time and place to exist etc.. This is what pragmatics describes.

The third element the representation of information can have, is optional, in general:

Syntactics: The recognition that multiple semantic combinations - representations of information - can exist in combination with each other, either at the same time, or in sequence.

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Slight analogy to demonstrate:

Imagine I have two different paintings of northern France. The rules that govern what the paintings are of (northern France) and that they are paintings, are rules of semantics. If one is a watercolour, and one is an oil painting, then they both have different such rules of both semantics and pragmatics (different medium), yes? (EDIT: Though whether or not different types of paint would be enough to affect their pragmatic context, I'm not sure - they're both paintings, in general, which might be enough?)

If we recognise that they have created by different painters, at different times for different reasons, then they would also (definitely) differ in pragmatics, okay?

These two pictures exist completely independently of each other, and don't rely on each other to have any meaning whatsoever, yes?

Imagine then, that we exhibited them in a gallery devoted to paintings of northern France/Normandy - this itself would form a very basic rule of syntactics. However, if they order the paintings based on the location of the content of the pictures, then this would be an additional rule of syntactics - governing how and why they are used, and represented in relation to each other, in sequence.

If the paintings were not of northern France, then such rules of syntactics would have no context in which to exist in relation to such paintings. Such rules do NOT DEFINE what the paintings are, since they exist completely independently of such an exhibition to begin with. So any and all rules of syntactics are therefore fundamentally based upon what the individual semantic combinations are, that exist completely independently of such syntactic use.

Although any two representations can exist in combination with each other at any time, and for any reason, any rules that govern such combination always exist because of what the combinations are.

Semantics (causes) -> syntactics.

To define semantic meaning purely by its syntactic use, is to deny its very existence. This is why syntactics is always optional in regards to the representation of information in general.

------------------

So how does this affect our understanding of (the English) language?

Language inherently involves representing information to transfer information between different entities (communication). It therefore inherently involves all of semiosis.

It however involves more applied rules of both semantics and syntactics. The reason we currently have problems, is that we're defining the language purely as and by its rules of syntactics, without recognising the rules of semantics that cause them to exist.

For this reason, although we understand how the language is used, in general (it still has more specific problems), we don't fully understand why.

Language has more complex rules governing what the information is, that is being represented, that then defines how and why its representation is used - applied semantics causing applied syntactics.

The rules of semantics in relation to language, are about relationships and similarities between different pieces of information because of what the information is of.

Because of what the information is of, and how it relates to what (and how) humanity perceives of the universe around us, the rules of applied semantics group such pieces of information and their representations up based on the type of concept that what the information is of, belongs to.

The four consistent concepts we perceive in the universe around us, that is reflected in the basic functionality of language in general are (as best described in English):

1. Things
2. Properties of things
3. Things of happening (or things that happen)
4. Properties of things of happening/that happen

Since these concepts appear to be consistent for humanity in general, they also exist independently of any representation we have of them.

The rules defining such concepts (and more) therefore govern the basic semantic combinations of representation and information any and all languages have.

The rules of syntactics for language, are therefore based upon such rules of semantics, and govern how the representations of information are used in sequence, because of the concept being represented, that the individual piece of information belongs to - it's basic manner of use.

In English, each basic concept is treated in a different syntactic manner, and, as such, has their own manner of use:

1. Things -> noun
2. Properties of things -> adjective
3. Things of happening -> verb
4. Properties of things of happening ->adverb

If these rules of syntactics had no relationship to any rules of semantics, they would, and could, have no context or reason to exist, for they could have no representations of information to affect.

Unfortunately, we have problems recognising and understanding all this, currently.

Since we perceive the language as and by its syntactic use, we fail to truly recognise and understand all the different concepts that the pieces of information being represented happen to belong to - we don't truly recognise that multiple concepts can cause similar manners of use, or in the case of is/am/are recognise that there is a different concept being used in a different manner in the first place.

Basic concept - applied semantics - rules of content - (rules governing what the individual combinations are, and how they are related, similar or different because of) the type of 'thing' being represented. (Such basic concepts naturally exist in a taxonomic hierarchy.)

Manner of use - applied syntactics - rules of grammar - rules governing how the representations are used in sequence, because of the concept the information they represent belongs to.

If verb were a basic concept then it would require a manner of use to be applied as, in order to remain consistent with noun, adjective and adverb. Since it is consistent with being a manner of use, it therefore needs to be recognised as and by a consistent concept that causes such use, and ONLY such use. Things of happening is the only such concept that is only used in the manner we label as verb.

Since is/am/are do not FULLY share such a use - are not only used as verbs - they cannot be labelled as having such a manner of use - which also tells us (by reverse engineering such use) that they do not/cannot belong to the same concept, and so have no reason to be confused by such a use, anyway.

The only reason such manners of use matter is because of the basic concepts they're caused by. These concepts enable language to function - by allowing the meaning of words (of what the information is of, that is being represented) to be more consistently communicated.
 
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MikeNewYork

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Way too many words and too little actual content. Have you ever tried editing yourself? Nobody is going to read all this stuff unless you have a gun. :lol:
 

DarrenTomlyn

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If you refuse to accept the true nature and context of language and linguistics due to it being 'too complicated' or 'TLDR' - you're not going to get very far - this isn't the website and forum for you... If you fail to understand the full content of what I wrote, then leave - for EVERYTHING this website is about and for, is contained within and based upon what I wrote above. (I guess you skipped reading most of your English textbook too, yes - TLDR?)

This is exactly what education is about and for, and language helps to tie everything else together, making it possibly the most important thing humanity has every created for itself.

Anyone who fails to understand this, will always fail to understand humanity itself, for what it is and why - as our language(s) is/(are) the most fundamental reflection of who and what we are as a species. (EDIT: As an individual, however, the language we use helps to define us - define our very thoughts and perception of the universe around us. There is a reason why language must be TAUGHT, and not created by every individual person...)

EDIT 2: If you think language as, and/or should be, something very simple that anyone can easily learn and understand - YOU ARE MISTAKEN. Language is actually far more complex than anyone currently teaching it appears to fully understand. Trying to teach it in a manner that does not reflect its complexity, is therefore a large part of the problems we have - that you can NEVER recognise, until you realise just how much of the language your recognition, and understanding of it, denies the existence of - because its more complex than you WANT it to be.

Precisely because of this complexity however, is the reason for rules in the first place, that NEED to be consistent. The context of language I gave above is how and why this should happen, or it ceases to exist, for it HAS no context.

This is what my question is there for - to force you to examine the language and recognise that which you do not currently see and understand, even as you use it (probably) everyday.

So what concepts are used as/cause the manner of use noun in the English language? (Or do you deny the very existence of noun(s) too?)
 
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MikeNewYork

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I think you are hopeless. Billions of people on the planet speak language, and the vast majority of them have not read your blog.
 

DarrenTomlyn

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The vast majority of people haven't read Principia Mathematica either - does that mean that Newton's laws of motion don't apply to them in any way, ever, at all?

Your replies have now verged into the ridiculous and trolling territory - whereupon the very nature and existence of language, linguistics, communication and semiosis - the representation of information, and even information itself - must now be denied according to you.

As of this moment all your replies will be left unanswered and I will laugh in your face...

Go to a mathematics forum and tell someone that number-theory has no bearing on mathematics, algebra or calculus and see how far that gets you... You're just lucky that no-one else has noticed your little charade over here...
 

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Mike, you are just encouraging him by responding. (He's on my ignore list, but that doesn't keep me from getting notifications of new postings to this thread. :-()
 

DarrenTomlyn

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If this is the sort of reply that is found on this forum - then it is obviously worse than useless.

To have anyone on this forum to be supported when their opinion is so obviously inconsistent with the very language we use, tells me everything I need to know about this site...

@MikeNewYork

Your understanding of language is not consistent with the basic existence of the following words (and far, far more):

Colour
Agility
Strength
Height
Speed
Event
State
Action
Activity
Game
Art
Puzzle
Competition
Movement
Flight
Distance
Weight

NONE of these words represent things that exist in ISOLATION - (e.g. objects/people/animals/plants/substances/materials/places/information/ideas/concepts/(absolute) time and space) - yet are ALL used as nouns.

Your understanding and opinion of language is therefore demonstrably wrong if it does not allow for the existence of these words and the information they represent.

So what 4 concepts can and do they belong to?
 

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Of course they are used as nouns. Who said otherwise? My understanding of language is consistent with the vast majority of native speakers. Yours is not.
 

MikeNewYork

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Ron, I keep hoping that he will get to something relevant.
 

DarrenTomlyn

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Of course they are used as nouns. Who said otherwise? My understanding of language is consistent with the vast majority of native speakers. Yours is not.

But noun means nothing about WHAT THEY MEAN - merely HOW THEIR REPRESENTATION IS USED.

WHAT CONCEPTS DO THEY BELONG TO - WHAT TYPE OF INFORMATION DO THEY REPRESENT?

THIS IS THE QUESTION I HAVE BEEN ASKING OF YOU - WHAT 4 ADDITIONAL CONCEPTS ARE USED AS NOUNS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE?

IMPLICIT IN THE ANSWER OF THIS QUESTION IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEIR MANNER OF USE AND THE BASIC CONCEPT THE INFORMATION THEY REPRESENT BELONGS TO - WHICH YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE.
 

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A "noun" is one of the recognized parts of speech. As such, it is named for the role it plays in a sentence. For me, the information they represent is a minor issue because one could invent a very long list that would help nobody. It may be important to you, so you deal with it.
 

Tdol

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If this is the sort of reply that is found on this forum - then it is obviously worse than useless.

To have anyone on this forum to be supported when their opinion is so obviously inconsistent with the very language we use, tells me everything I need to know about this site...

This suggests that you have very little idea of what a forum is- it is a public place for the exchange of ideas, and defending the right of that exchange matters, which is why we allow and have always allowed people to express ideas we don't agree with. There are many views expressed on this site that I don't agree with, but all I will do is express an alternative. I only ban people when they fail to tolerate other views, which has yet to happen seriously in this thread.
 

DarrenTomlyn

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, the information they represent is a minor issue

DEMONSTRABLY WRONG.

The information represented IS EVERYTHING that matters - it the the very reason communication (and therefore language) can, and does, exist. For you not to care about this, is to deny their very existence.

If you do not recognise the concepts used as nouns, then you CANNOT recognise the differences that cause noun, verb, adjective and adverb in the first place - at which point, such so-called 'parts of speech' - (an inconsistent description, for they are merely manners of syntactic use) - have NO MEANING AT ALL.

Why?

Take a good look at the list of words above, and tell me what makes most of them special - purely as representations in themselves.
 
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