subjunctive

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tipu s

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"It is high time she realized her duty"
Why is there the past form in this sentence? Can't it be
"It is high time she realize her duty". What is the difference?
 
Use it's high time + past rather than present.
 
"It is high time she realized her duty"
Why is there the past form in this sentence? Can't it be
"It is high time she realize her duty". What is the difference?

***** NOT A TEACHER

***** ONLY MY OPINION


Tipu,


I found something on the Web that I try to follow. It may help

you to decide which one you wish to use.

It is high time (that) we send him a letter.

=

a plan to do something real.

It is high time (that) we sent him a letter.

=

A regret that we haven't done something yet.


Thank you
 
"It is high time she realized her duty"
Why is there the past form in this sentence? Can't it be
"It is high time she realize her duty". What is the difference?


***** NOT A TEACHER

***** ONLY MY OPINION


Tipu,

I found this in Professor George O. Curme's A Grammar of the English

Language:

(1) It is high time that he go.

(2) It is high time that he went/ were going/ should go.

The professor says that the answers in No. 2 are more

"modest." He does not define "modest." I guess that he means

that No. 1 is stronger and more demanding than No. 2.

For example, if you had a friend, it might be more courteous

to say:

It is high time that your son studied harder.

Perhaps "It is high time that your son study harder" might be

too strong or demanding.


Thank you

P. S. They often say that in English, the past form is more

courteous. Compare:

Hey! Can I sit here?

Excuse me. Could I sit here, please?
 
***** NOT A TEACHER

***** ONLY MY OPINION


Tipu,


I found something on the Web that I try to follow. It may help

you to decide which one you wish to use.

It is high time (that) we send him a letter.

=

a plan to do something real.

It is high time (that) we sent him a letter.

=

A regret that we haven't done something yet.


Thank you

Are you saying it's correct to use the subjunctive mood after the construction "It is high time that"?

I thought only the past tense was correct.

Thanks.
 
Are you saying it's correct to use the subjunctive mood after the construction "It is high time that"?

I thought only the past tense was correct.

Thanks.


***** NOT A TEACHER

***** ONLY MY OPINION


Jasmin,

Until one of the teachers answers your great question, may I try?

According to Professor Curme and others, the answer to your question is

YES.

It is high time that he go (so-called present subjunctive).

It is high time that he went (so-called past subjunctive

which -- as you said -- is the same as the regular, indicative past).

Most "experts" see a difference in meaning between the two.

(As I tried to explain in my two other posts in this thread.)

I guess (repeat: guess) that the present subjunctive is a little

stronger than the past subjunctive. So I guess we would not

go wrong to advise learners to always use the past subjunctive.

Later when they understand better the nuances of English, they

can then turn their attention to the present subjunctive in this kind

of sentence.



Thank you
 
Curme was writing 70 years ago.

Standard BrE is as Tdol said: Use it's high time + past rather than present.


"It is high time she realized her duty" .

This means something like:

The ideal time for her to realize her duty is (almost) past.
 
Use it's high time + past rather than present.
And what about this sentence
"He urged that I go (or went) there."
 
NOT A TEACHER.

Only "go" is correct.

Maybe, but it still sounds strange.
He urged me to go there is a much more natural construction.
 
One presumes Tdol meant to write 'past subjunctive' because: she has obviously not realized/done anything, or the sentence would not have been uttered. Even in the confused world of English tense, an unrealized action cannot be deemed something that she did in the past.
 
One presumes Tdol meant to write 'past subjunctive' because: she has obviously not realized/done anything, or the sentence would not have been uttered. Even in the confused world of English tense, an unrealized action cannot be deemed something that she did in the past.
I hope Tdol did not mean to write 'past subjunctive' because there is no such recognisable animal in English with the exception, for some speakers, of were for was in two of the six persons of the past of BE.
 
"It is high time she realized her duty"
Why is there the past form in this sentence? Can't it be
"It is high time she realize her duty". What is the difference?

It is an anomalous obligatory use of the preterite (simple past indicative) to refer to a notional present.

Subjunctive forms, past or present, are not acceptable here in contemporary usage.
 
I cannot believe you are serious here? 'no such recognisable animal in English'?? We use the subjunctive all the time, on a daily basis. You really should learn to recognize it. Look up the subjunctive anywhere.

If I read my grammar book, I would know better.
 
I cannot believe you are serious here? 'no such recognisable animal in English'?? We use the subjunctive all the time, on a daily basis. You really should learn to recognize it. Look up the subjunctive anywhere.

If I read my grammar book, I would know better.

As much as it pains me to have to agree with Pedroski about anything, he is, in my view, correct on this occasion.
 
As much as it pains me to have to agree with Pedroski about anything, he is, in my view, correct on this occasion.

Now I am worried!:shock:

I have never denied that the present subjunctive exists in English, though it is used rarely by many people, and not at all by some.

Quirk et al (pps101-14) write [my emphasis added]:

The present subjunctive is used very occasionally in formal style in open conditional clauses and in concessive clauses.[...] More usually the simple present indicative is used.
[...]
Clauses of concession and purpose may also very occasionally in formal style contain a present subjunctive (esp in AmE)
[...]
In general the present subjunctive occurs more frequently in AmE than in BrE. In BrE it occurs chiefly in formal style.


And that's the present subjunctive. If we turn to the past subjunctive, I said (emphasis added): there is no such recognisable animal in English with the exception, for some speakers, of were for was in two of the six persons of the past of BE. That, gentlemen is fact, not opinion.

If I had a car, I would drive you there.

The equivalent of the underlined verb form may be in a subjunctive form in many other languages. It may have been a subjunctive form in the English of earlier times. Some writers today may still consider it to be subjunctive. BUT, it has exactly the same form as the indicative. The same is true for all verbs in English, except BE.

Even with BE, the subjunctive form is recognisable only in the first and third person singular forms. And even with these forms, many BrE speakers today do not use the subjunctive form except in the fixed phrase if I were you.


It is a matter of discussion among teachers whether or not we teach the past subjunctive, and my opinion is no more valuable than anybody else's on that subject. But: there is no such recognisable animal (as the past subjunctive) in English with the exception, for some speakers, of were for was in two of the six persons of the past of BE.
 
Why should it hurt you to agree with someone? That is just silly.

The subjunctive is used to describe irreal situations. We need and use the present and past subjunctive very regularly. Many of the students here will speak languages which overtly mark subjunctive verb forms in their language. They will wonder where the subjunctive got to in English. Well, it is right there in the language, and often indistiguishable from the present or past tense form of the verb. Even some teachers, apparently, have problems recognizing it.

A web search for 'The subjunctive in English' will find millions of pages of information.

I have a car. Present tense 'have' Now
I had a car. Past tense 'had' at some time in the past.
If I had a car, I would drive you there. 'If I had a car' = 'I do not have a car' = the proposal of a hypothetical, irreal situation. This situation is conjecture, an imagined scenario. It is not anything in the past. It is not past tense. 'I would' = past subjunctive form of 'will' = another hypothetical situation, which is only realizeable if the 'If' condition is true, which it patently is not, and is therefore also not in the past.

'The same is true for all verbs in English, except BE." Not quite the truth:

It is important that he study. Cf He studies/he studied

We recommend that he join the committee. He joins/he joined

The subjunctive is used very regularly, by everyone, even by yourselves, though you may not be able notice it.
 
The subjunctive is used very regularly, by everyone, even by yourselves, though you may not be able notice it.
Precisely.:)
 
It is a matter of discussion among teachers whether or not we teach the past subjunctive, and my opinion is no more valuable than anybody else's on that subject. But: there is no such recognisable animal (as the past subjunctive) in English with the exception, for some speakers, of were for was in two of the six persons of the past of BE.

My opinion is that 'recognizability' (based on what are ultimately mere coincidences of spelling/pronunciation) is no more a valid consideration in this case than it would ever normally be in the realm of grammatical analysis, any more than it would be with regard to, say, 'fast' as an adjective versus 'fast' as an adverb, or 'put' as a present tense versus 'put' as a past tense.

As teachers, we owe it to our students to label the tense-form that appears in the protasis of any second conditional a past subjunctive, and not for any ethereal reasons of academic 'purity', but simply because it serves ultimately to avoid the greater confusion that may ensue from our attempts to 'dumb things down' by pretending that it is just an indicative (simply because it looks like one).

To be precise, without a formalized concept of a subjunctive, we are likely to encounter one or more of the following problems:

1. The difficulty of explaining away the fact that sometimes, for no apparent reason whatsoever, English preterites stop referring to the past, and refer to the present, or even the future.

2. The difficulty of explaining away the fact that sometimes, for no apparent reason whatsoever, English preterites actively assert the unreality of the event or condition that they denote.

3. The difficulty of explaining away the fact that sometimes, no for apparent reason whatsoever, the first and third person singular of the preterite of 'be' switches from 'was' to 'were' (obligatorily so in formal AmE).
N.B. The latter phenomenon simply does not qualify as a 'fixed phrase', since it is not 'fixed': that is, I can insert any verb at all after the 'were' of If I/he/she/it were... and what follows will be structurally correct, yielding tens of thousands of permutations. It is a construction, not a fixed phrase!

You remarked earlier that you did not find it 'helpful' to invoke the term 'subjunctive' when the form in question enjoys near-complete homomorphicity with the indicative. Given, then, the above-listed pedagogical problems likely to arise from a denial of (or, at least, deliberate failure to signal) its existence, is that near-complete homomorphicity not in fact the most compelling reason of all to teach it, since the student has virtually no extra verb-forms to learn, simply one single new grammar term?

Most intermediate-advanced English-learners that I know are more than capable of, to use the vernacular, 'getting their heads around that'!
 
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