the use of "whom"

[easybreakable]

I need to know how it's used properly, someone told me that it's an old English and no longer used but sometimes I feel like it should be placed in certain situations, for example: I don't know whom to blame, Sara or David!

Clarify this please.

 

[SoothingDave]

"Who" is a subject. "Whom" is an object.

"Who let the dogs out?" vs. "With whom are you going to the dance?"

"Whom" is not used by many, many natives. (e.g. "Who are you going to the dance with?") Its use can seem overly formal or pretentious.

 

[Barb_D]

However,even those who don't use it often will still use it immediately after a preposition.

 

[SoothingDave]

True. Even William F Buckley, Jr. gave up on the use of "whom" to start questions ("Who are you going to meet there?"), but retained the after preposition use. ("You are going to meet with whom?")

 

[easybreakable]

However,even those who don't use it often will still use it immediately after a preposition.

Do you mean it could only be used after a preposition? Is my own example wrong?

 

[Barb_D]

Your example is quite correct.

Most native speakers would use "who" (technically incorrect, but commonly accepted) in their speech.

 

[TheParser]

I need to know how it's used properly, someone told me that it's an old English and no longer used but sometimes I feel like it should be placed in certain situations, for example: I don't know whom to blame, Sara or David!

Clarify this please.

***** NOT A TEACHER *****
************************


Easybreakable,


(1) I agree with what the other posters have recommended.

(2) I only wish to add that sometimes people who tell you that

"it's old English and no longer used" are often people who do not

understand the difference themselves.

(a) If you wish to call yourself fluent in English, I suggest that you

try to understand the use of "whom" to the best of your ability.

Then you can decide when and if to use it.

(i) Probably in speech, it takes too much lung power to say:

WHOM do you live with? So go ahead and use "who" -- so long

as you know it is "wrong." On the other hand, notice how much

easier it is to say: "With whom do you live?"

THANK YOU

 

[5jj]

(a) If you wish to call yourself fluent in English, I suggest that you
try to understand the use of "whom" to the best of your ability.

Parser normally gives very sound advice, but I disagree with him on this point.

As SoothingDave noted, its use can seem overly formal or pretentious; this is most certainly true in Britain. I suspect that the majority of native speakers of BrE do not know when or how to use whom.

I see no point in a learner attempting to master what is alien to many native speakers.

 

[birdeen's call]

I'd like to give my opinion on this too because I think it differs slightly from both of your (Parser's and 5jj's) stances.

I think there are two well-grounded approaches a student may want to employ. One would be to never use the word "whom" and give up understanding its usage. It shouldn't make understanding it in a context difficult. This approach is bad because the student gives up understanding an extant part of the language. It's good because they have to learn less losing little.

Another good way would be to learn to use "whom" correctly. It's good because the student improves their control over their writing: they have more alternative ways of writing the same. It gives the student a stylistic tool. It's bad because the student has to learn more.

The problem arises when there's no approach and I think that's the problem of the native speakers you mentioned (those of them who have a problem with it). I see native and non-native speakers using "whom" incorrectly. This is not good because it sounds (or looks) uneducated. That's why I think one should pay some attention to the word "whom". It's necessary to make a conscious choice.

 

[NikkiBarber]

I agree that it is better to stick to "who" if you are not sure about the rules, but I don't understand how using "whom" could seem pretentious.
While none of my English teachers would mark the use of "who" as an object incorrect (even though it is) they would all give students who were able to use "whom" correctly a slightly better grade.
It is true that most people say "who" when they are having a conversation but in written texts "whom" is still used and it looks perfectly normal to me. Perhaps "whom" is just more common in America?

 

[NikkiBarber]

I should add that although Americans frequently use "whom" correctly, I am not sure that they are all aware that they are doing so because the word is the object of the sentence. It is my impression that they have heard and seen it used in certain situations and copy this without being aware of the reason.

 

[5jj]

At the risk of being even more boring than usual, I'll attempt to clarify my views.

1. My first post was in response to Parser's "If you wish to call yourself fluent in English, I suggest that you try to understand the use of "whom" to the best of your ability".

As (at a guess) over 80% of British people are both fluent in English and completely ignorant of the usages of 'whom', I think that Parser's advice imposes an unnecessary strain on some learners. I should perhaps have added the part underlined to the final sentence of my first post: "I see no point in a learner of BrE attempting to master what is alien to many native speakers."

2. As many younger learners wish to be able to converse in natural language with other young people, then insisting on whom can actually disadvantage them (see #3, below). When (if) they wish later to be able to use more formal language then they can, just like many native speakers, learn to do so.

3. I do not advocate denying the existence of whom or claiming that its use is incorrect. When learners who have been previously taught to use it correctly, then I do not try to make them change to who in all situations. I do, however, point out that it can sound very strange in some situations. Most young native speakers would find, for example, "With whom did I see you at the dance last week" most unnatural.

4. With adult learners who may be using the language formally, in speech or in writing, then of course I help them use more formal constructions, including whom. I also cover it in more depth if I know that my learners will be using the language in AmE areas. As Nikki suggested, many Americans use whom naturally; my arguments for not obliging students to learn an unnatural form are not valid for AmE.

5. When the learner's L1 has subject and object forms of the relative pronoun, then I make more use of whom, as I have found that this helps the learning process. However, I still do not encourage its use in informal situations.

I must stop before this becomes even more tedious.

 

[easybreakable]

***** NOT A TEACHER *****
************************


Easybreakable,


(2) I only wish to add that sometimes people who tell you that

"it's old English and no longer used" are often people who do not

understand the difference themselves.

(a) If you wish to call yourself fluent in English, I suggest that you

try to understand the use of "whom" to the best of your ability.

Then you can decide when and if to use it.

That is why I'm asking, thank you and the others.

 

[birdeen's call]

Perhaps "whom" is just more common in America?

I believe that's exactly right.

One more opinion. this time by William Safire:

"The best rule for dealing with who vs. whom is this: Whenever whom is required, recast the sentence. This keeps a huge section of the hard disk of your mind available for baseball averages."

I guess it means that those who are not interested in baseball should use "whom".

 

[easybreakable]

At the risk of being even more boring than usual, I'll attempt to clarify my views.

Not at all, that was informative and pretty satisfactory.

 

[SoothingDave]

I agree that it is better to stick to "who" if you are not sure about the rules, but I don't understand how using "whom" could seem pretentious.

Just to be clear, I was speaking more about using "whom" in conversation, not in formal writing.

The idea is that insisting on using the "correct" English "whom" in everyday speaking can seem like you are going out of your way to show that you are smarter or better than everyone else.

That's how the perception of pretentiousness arises.

And, as was pointed out above, it is far better to avoid "whom" if you don't know how to use it.

 

[NikkiBarber]

At the risk of being even more boring than usual

Why would you consider your posts to be boring? I think the fact that everyone here is even spending time in this forum means that we find opinions such as yours interesting.

 

[5jj]

Why would you consider your posts to be boring?

I don't really. I think they are erudite and fascinating.;-) (Change that think to know.)

However, by making a mock-humble excuse, I pre-empt thoughtless insults from lower mortals. I sometimes even get counter-claims that they are not boring. :-D

 

[~Mav~]

I think they are erudite and fascinating.;-)

They really are! :up:

However, by making a mock-humble excuse, I pre-empt thoughtless insults from lower mortals.

That's great! :up: :lol: I'll memorise it. :-D

I sometimes even get counter-claims that they are not boring. :-D

Just like now! ;-)