There is this guy at school...

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"That guy" would be used if pointing someone out who is physically present (That guy over there is the one who almost hit me in the parking lot) or to refer to a definite person already identified (Do you know Jim? Yeah, that guy is really a piece of work!).
 
probus said:
No. It can only be "this", never "that". I can't give a rational explanation, but that's just how native speakers talk, at least in AmE. Think of it as like a set phrase.
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So, in any other sentence except this set phrase, if she was talking about a guy at school, would she say that guy?
 
99bottles said:
So, in any other sentence except this set phrase, if she was talking about a guy at school, would she say that guy?
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There is no 'set phrase' in the words in the original post.

What utterance would you like to produce with 'that' guy'?
 
5jj said:
There is no 'set phrase' in the words in the original post.

What utterance would you like to produce with 'that' guy'?
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Is there any case in which one could say that guy at school?
 
Sure. Millions, at least. šŸ™‚
 
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probus said:
Sure. Millions, at least. šŸ™‚
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Can you please give me an example so that I learn the difference and know when to use this and when to use that when talking about people that are not physically present?
 
Use this when you're introducing someone or something new. In the original example, the speaker is introducing the hot guy to the listener.

Use that when the listener is already familiar with the person or thing.
 
jutfrank said:
Use this when you're introducing someone or something new. In the original example, the speaker is introducing the hot guy to the listener.

Use that when the listener is already familiar with the person or thing.
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Thanks. In the meantime, I found this article on the Cambridge website (scroll down to the 'Emotional Distance' part). It says that we use this when we feel emotionally close to someone and that when it's someone we don't want to interact with. So, if it's someone we have already introduced (that) but we feel emotionally close to (this), what do we use? šŸ˜µā€šŸ’«

dictionary.cambridge.org

This, that, these, those

This, that, these, those - English Grammar Today - a reference to written and spoken English grammar and usage - Cambridge Dictionary
dictionary.cambridge.org dictionary.cambridge.org
 
I don't agree with their explanation. It's far too prescriptive. I'm just as likely to say "I love those new woollen mobile phone covers ..." as "... these new ...".

I would agree that we sometimes use "that" to indicate dislike or displeasure.
 
99bottles said:
So, if it's someone we have already introduced (that) but we feel emotionally close to (this), what do we use? šŸ˜µā€šŸ’«
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It depends on context and meaning.

Forget about the emotional distance explanation, which is not relevant to the use we're talking about here. Look instead at the part headed 'Shared knowledge and new information'.
 
emsr2d2 said:
I don't agree with their explanation. It's far too prescriptive.
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Actually, it's the complete opposite. It's entirely descriptive.

Dictionaries are descriptive in that they tell you what people say. They don't tell people what to say. In this case, the dictionary is saying that one of the uses of this/that is to create emotional proximity/distance. It isn't saying you have to do it, and it doesn't mean people are more likely than not to do it.
 
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jutfrank said:
Actually, it's the complete opposite. It's entirely descriptive.

Dictionaries are descriptive in that they tell you what people say. They don't tell people what to say. In this case, the dictionary is saying that one of the uses of this/that is to create emotional proximity/distance. It isn't saying you have to do it, and it doesn't mean people are more likely than not to do it.
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A huge can of worms has opened, because it has occurred to me that, in my manuscript, I have referred countless times to people that are not physically present, and I don't know whether I should have used this or that. For example, can someone tell me which of the two to use in the cases below?

-Someone talks about a girl he's in love with. The girl has already been introduced to the readers, and she's not physically present. This girl or that girl?
-Someone talks about a guy he dislikes. The guy has been introduced to the readers, he's physically present, but he's not close to the speaker physically. This guy or that guy?
-Someone talks about a group of unknown kids that he has just seen. The kids are walking away, so they're not very close to the speaker physically. These kids or those kids?
 
If you're talking about dialogue, it doesn't matter what's been introduced to the readers. It's about what's been introduced to the listeners.

You need to give us some solid context to consider. These words are what are called 'reference words', which means that their meaning depends on what the speaker means, and what the speaker knows about what the listener knows about what the speaker means. And sometimes you need to say the instead of this or that. It's very complicated, so we need specific context.
 
jutfrank said:
If you're talking about dialogue, it doesn't matter what's been introduced to the readers. It's about what's been introduced to the listeners.

You need to give us some solid context to consider. These words are what are called 'reference words', which means that their meaning depends on what the speaker means, and what the speaker knows about what the listener knows about what the speaker means. And sometimes you need to say the instead of this or that. It's very complicated, so we need specific context.
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OK, can you please answer for both cases (what I should say as a narrator and what a character should say in a dialogue)? I have used those words countless times, and I need to reread my manuscript. Just my luck! šŸ˜­
 
I feel like you're trying to get us to proofread/edit your latest manuscript word by word. That's not an appropriate use of the forum. You already have far more threads open than any other user. This is supposed to be your manuscript, not ours. I think we said this about your last book too. It's unfair to use volunteers' time to proofread/edit a book (for free) that you're planning to market commercially.

I strongly suggest you employ the services of a professional editor.
 
99bottles said:
OK, can you please answer for both cases (what I should say as a narrator and what a character should say in a dialogue)?
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I had hoped to make it clear in post #17 that that is not possible. Correct usage depends on meaning, and meaning depends on context.
 
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